Dale Allen, an executive leadership coach who uses a unique empathetic brain-based approach, sat down with Shaun Majumder at CREA’s 2026 Leadership Summit to discuss the importance of creativity and flexibility in leadership. She also shared insights into the value of emotional intelligence, checking in with yourself as a leader, and “noticing your grip.”

Transcript

Dale Allen: You don’t want to learn to swim when you’re drowning, so it’s what you do now. This is why I’m saying about desire, oftentimes, I’m working with people, and they want the change, but they don’t want to do the work because it’s not crisis time yet. I’m saying, don’t wait until there’s a crisis. You really do need to practice.

Shaun: I love it. Welcome. This is so exciting, guys. Are you guys stoked to see a live podcast now? No fights are going to break out. This is going to be like– We’re just going to have a great conversation. I’ve so enjoyed doing this podcast over the last year and a half now. We’re so excited to have Dale Allen. Dale, first of all, why don’t you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what your company is, what your passion is, and let’s talk about leadership. I’m stoked to talk about leadership.

Dale: Sounds good. I am Dale Allen. I’ve been called many things, but Dale is my name. My company is called ConsciousLead, and I have a real ache for being around people, working with people, connecting with people who want to do things with people, like understand how people work. I just think that it’s a bit of a tragedy, in many organizations, that we can do this stuff, where we’re leading people, we have to make decisions with people yet we might not take the time and create the space to really understand how people work.

Sometimes, just because we have a leadership title, we can assume that we understand how people work, and I think that that can be a myth. I love, and I am telling you, I’m committed to, and have an ache for when people understand that that part’s important.

Shaun: Yes, I think it is. I feel like, in the world, if you’re an ambitious person at all, and you want to achieve great things, a lot of people spend a lot of time in their own head, right? We’re spending lots of time, as creative people, thinking about, “Okay, I want to do this. I want to achieve this, but I’m really thinking about I, I, I,” and we’re not focusing on the people around you and what you need to get out of them, I guess, in order to help you achieve the things that you want to achieve, right?

Dale: Yes.

Shaun: I want to ask you a bit about that because I’m pretty stoked now. I’ve gone from being– I’m an actor and a comedian. I do all this creative stuff, but I’ve now taking a much more entrepreneurial role, and I’ve created my own company now. It’s called Lafboy Films. I want to be the leader of this company, but I know I need to get better at being a leader. Why don’t we talk a bit about that?

You have an interesting approach. I hear you have something called a brain-based [chuckles] approach to leadership. Thank God, because when I think about AI has taken over the world, I’m like, “Thank God, this is going to be an organic, wet brain approach to leadership.” Explain a bit about that. What do you mean by that?

Dale: Yes. Some years ago, we had– I’ve been coaching for 21 years, so my partner and I have had this business. Some years ago, we started to really study neuroscience and understand the impact of what it means to be together, the impact that we are having on each other right now. I was thinking about whether you have clients or you’re looking at your own team or your team at home, the fact that we are actually always in response to people’s brains.

If their brain is in a threat state, then it closes. It can’t open to the ideas that we have, to what we want to share with them. I’ve got two kids, so I know that for sure.

Shaun: I’ve got two kids.

Dale: You know what it’s like, right?

Shaun: How old are your kids now?

Dale: 16 and 18.

Shaun: Oh, wow. Mine are 4 and 6.

Dale: Oh, it’s so yummy.

Shaun: Yes, so yummy.

Dale: That’s also where it started for us, too. Our children are young, and we were really understanding how the brain works so that we could be really great parents for them. It makes me think that if all of us here, of course, we’ve got brains, right? Yes, you’re with me on that one, so we do. It’s that anytime we walk into a room, anytime we walk into a conversation, as we wake, our brain is always scanning our environment for a threat or a reward.

Just in knowing that, to me, I think it’s so important for us to know how do we actually help ourselves when our brain is in a threat state in a given moment. It can happen. We can go into a threat state like that.

Shaun: It’s a blink.

Dale: Oh, yes, and we don’t even know it. To me, it’s like if we understood that principle, and then we looked at, then, how do I know when my colleague or a client or another board member or whichever is in that threat state, even for a blink? What would I do differently then to invite them into a state where they could be more open, they could hear what I have to offer? In particular, when things are challenging. I always say leadership shows up when things are challenging. When life’s easy–

Shaun: Oh, when life’s easy, man, it’s like I am– I’ve always joked around about this. I feel like I can be full enlightened Buddha when I am by myself, and there’s not another input around me. I have no influence. Then you put me on the highway, and someone cuts me off when I’m merging, or they don’t merge, all of a sudden, I’m getting triggered, or my partner, she says something that affected me 15 years ago. Then all of a sudden, this thing comes up.

I’m here preaching to her about being calm and don’t lead with fear, and here I am freaking out inside about being fearful. It’s so hard to be a human, to have a brain. It’s really hard. When you apply that to your team, and when you’re thinking about that, I heard you say something just now, which I find interesting. A lot of it that I’ve worked on as a parent has been about my own awareness of my own reactions to things. When you talk about how can I get a client or a team member in that same headspace, what are the tools that you use to get them there so that they are open to hearing your leadership style? Talk to me about that.

Dale: I’m glad you asked because I’ve got my toolbox. I don’t [crosstalk] I was actually thinking about this because I got to meet with some people before from CREA, and I was sharing with them. I do have a process. I absolutely do. One of the things I’ll say is I’m going to name some steps because we like steps, don’t we? Everyone’s like, step 1, you do this, you be aware.

I suppose it is that, though. I think it is about being aware. I think before that, even if I was to give you the steps, I think that we need a desire. We’ve gone through this life, for example, without knowing about the brain, let’s just say. We’ve gone through our businesses, and we’ve parented and we’ve been partners to our spouses or whatever. We’ve gone through life just fine. I think it starts with desire. What I notice is it’s just like when I used to personal train as well. I would give people their program. Then I was like, “Oh, that’s not it. If you can Google it, then you don’t need me.” That way To me, you need to have a desire to want to lead in a way that has people’s brains open. It really does start there.

Shaun: Wait, back up. You’re saying you want to have a desire to lead in a way that opens people’s brain?

Dale: Which is really like opening their hearts, right?

Shaun: Right, right. Having the desire. You have to start from that place?

Dale: You do. The reason why I was saying that is because sometimes people will say, brain-based leadership or even coaching or doing leadership development, some people don’t want to do it. If you’ve ever worked with anyone where you’re like, they’re just not going to do it. That’s so normal. It’s just like in school, right? There’s a certain percent of the population who is going to do the work, right? We have to honor that that’s true for us. The desire becomes important because, in an organization, there’ll be about 20%. It’s the Pareto principle, just like in anything else.

Shaun: What is that? Can you explain that?

Dale: The Pareto principle, it’s the 80-20 rule. It applies in everything. When you look at behavior, for example, or anything that you see in our life where you go, 80% of the people will do the general way, and the 20% will be the ones who will do something different. That’s what I find here, too. There’ll be 20% when I work with a team, 20% of the folks will do the work. It’s just how it goes. You’ll see that, even if you look at your teams now– I don’t mean that other people aren’t working. I just mean you’ll see the difference in terms of who is like, “Yes, let’s go, let’s do it,” because it’s work.

Again, if I was to give you all a fitness program, which I could, we could do squats right now. That’s what I usually do. It totally is my thing. A little jump with that, too. You see? Next level, you see?

Shaun: I love it. I love it. I feel good already. Yes, keep going. I love that idea. When it gets back to desire, it gets 80-20. Then you lead by example, but how do you bring that out of your team?

Dale: Right. Here’s what I’ve noticed in looking at the stats, though, is then those 20% are the ones that you want to feed because everyone’s having an impact, right? If I keep developing them, then the way that they interact with folks who might be, like, later adopters or might not be interested at all in doing what it takes maybe to move the organization forward. It just means that everyone’s got a role. What happens with that 20%, I find, is that if I keep nurturing them, then how everyone else interacts with them, their interactions shift.

Change is still happening anyway. It’s so beautiful. If they’re not fed, then what happens is people, the 80% say how they are, and the 20% are trying to figure it out. There, if we develop them, then when they’re interacting with others, you’ll just watch. They’re already shifting the dynamic. That’s another thing I discovered over 21 years and over, I don’t know, 10,000 people that I’ve been coaching. You just start to see that that’s the way to cause a change. Not everyone has to jump on.

Shaun: Desire is important. Easier said than done.

Dale: Totally.

Shaun: I think that’s a big thing. Then, if I am a part of, let’s say, the 20% of that group, I want to affect change with my team. What if the team just isn’t coming this way? How do you manage that? I understand you have something called cognitive flexibility. I want to talk a little bit about that. I find that to be really an important piece.

Dale: Yes. Desire is one. We talked there. I just want to go to that, and I’ll lead you to– I want to weave in what you were saying about cognitive flexibility. Desire is needed because if we want to change something, we have to see who has the desire for the change. Then we want to see who has the desire to do the work for the change. We can have the ache for it, we have the desire for it to change, but we don’t want to do the work. Then that’s really natural. That happens. All the time.

I want to focus on the folks who want to do the work. What happens with that is, it’s just like, again, if you can just imagine at home, all of us are someone’s children. They’re someone’s child. If we look at when your sibling, actually, you were doing all the work and your other sibling wasn’t, does that happen? Were you the one who wasn’t doing the work? I don’t know. I’m not calling anyone out. When you see those kinds of imbalances, what you notice is that that can create tension.

That’s why us understanding the brain becomes important, because how do I then support folks when they’re meeting resistance from other people? Our ability as leaders to understand how do I coach you, how do I still support you, and how do I still support the rest of my team, becomes so important because you’re actually really balancing resistance and resistance, actually, right?

Shaun: Yes.

Dale: Cognitive flexibility to me is that, in coaching, in learning, how to understand how people react to things, how to understand what are their drivers, their motivations. When you understand that, then you can look at, “Oh, how do I then coach? Is there any Johns?” I always use John and Janes. If you’re a John and a Jane, I love you because you’ve made my life really, really simple.

How do I coach John over here? Really, I’m just coaching John because John’s dealing with resistance. I’m helping him work through resistance. Over here, I’ve got people who are seeming like resistors, but that’s okay. That’s also part of it, too. They might not understand what it’s going to take or see that as the way. Look at what is the way to understand their motivations as well as the motivations over here. That becomes our skill. That helps us, our brain, our mind, be more flexible. That’s why cognitive flexibility is not my word. I wish I made it up. I didn’t.

Shaun: Is that a cultural thing? Is there something cultural about that in terms of the way we’re brought up? I imagine, in some societies, there’s a certain way of being. It’s like, “This is strict. If you do not do it this way, then we don’t want you.” Then people fall away. You’re taking a much more empathetic approach to managing a team. Have you seen that in your studies and seen some cultures, they do it a certain way, but then it might create a certain vibe within a team?

I’m very positive and very optimistic. I want everybody to be on the same page. I want to lift everybody up. However, that doesn’t always happen. Sometimes, does it mean, are we getting the best results as well?

Dale: Totally. I think that the desire, again, going back to desire and then our awareness. Now we’ve got the ache to support people with the change. Then we build the awareness for folks. We help people be aware of what it is that they need to do. I think we need to help people be aware of how they work through resistance, how they work through people’s fear. When we do that, then we’re like, “Okay, now we’ve got something.”

When you’re talking about cultural, the one thing that I’d say, and this is what I love about the brain, is it doesn’t matter where you’re from, how long you’ve been on the planet. Your brain still is either going through threat or reward in a moment. Our motivations are what’s consistent between us, the same with the way our brain responds. That’s why I think it’s so foundational to know.

Shaun: It’s so universal.

Dale: Oh, yes. Absolutely, it is. Really, we’re looking at what are the motivators. If this 20% is so, so, so keen to support the change, it’s like they have internal motivators. The people who aren’t, they also have internal motivators. How do we have the motivations talk as opposed to it’s my way or the highway, right? If we talk about the motivations, it’s like, “You’ve got a need for efficiency?”

“Cool. So do I.”

“Oh, you think that’s the only way to do it? What about this one?”

It’s just like we usually argue or where the conflict happens is because our strategies to meet our needs, our motivations are different. Just the strategy, but the reason, the motivations are the same. We both want to do this effectively.

Shaun: Yes, end goal, same journey, maybe a little different based on personality, upbringing, whether you ate that morning. You could be tired, you didn’t sleep, your kid would have kept you up all night.

Dale: Exactly. If you sift through all of that, that becomes a distraction to what the goal is. That’s what often happens in leadership is we’re like, “I really love what Shaun said. Oh, but I loved what Dale said. Ooh, how do I–” We’re getting caught and distracted by that, where it’s like–

Shaun: Right, details.

Dale: Yes, totally. In leadership, it’s like we can’t afford that distraction. It’ll take us away from us moving forward.

Shaun: Is this resonating with you guys in terms of your teams? I really don’t know necessarily what the inner workings of everybody’s teams would be, but I think it’s applicable across the board, no matter what kind of team or what kind of business you’re in. What are the positive effects on the entire team when leadership is conscious, creative, and flexible? What would you say? Talk a bit about that. About how that impacts the entire–

Dale: About being conscious?

Shaun: Conscious, flexible, and creative. Creativity is something you may not think of immediately when you think of business, but talk about creativity when it comes to leadership, how important it is to be creative.

Dale: The other day, I was with a team, and the leader was explaining that they’re super stuck because they just had people. Right now, in this particular place, they’re downsizing, and they’re having a really hard time. You can imagine, and I just would love to hear from you all, but when you’re downsizing, if you can just imagine it, if it’s not been your reality, but what do you think shows up in the team, amongst team members, when you’re about to announce that you’re downsizing or right-sizing. Let’s say if you’re splitting an organization or some people are going to lose their footing because they might not be doing what they were doing before? I would love to hear from you.

Shaun: Yes, yell it out. What do you think, what comes up?

Dale: Yes, fear.

Speaker 3: Anxiety.

Dale: Anxiety. What do you think happens between people?

Speaker 3: Jealousy, conflict.

Speaker 6: Competitive.

Dale: Competitive, jealousy, conflict. What did you say over here?

Speaker 7: Tension.

Dale: Tension. Remember, I was saying earlier that leadership shows up when there’s a challenge? Because really, then it’s how am I going to be during tension, fear, anxiety, challenge? How do I lead in that moment? That’s where creativity comes in. How can I create with what is happening? That can be challenging.

My parents are Jamaican, and when I wanted to give me a recipe for soup or something, my mom will say, “Oh, Dale, you just need a little bit of salt and a little bit of–” I’m like, there is no measuring cup that says a little bit. In fancy places like maybe at Lee Valley or something, there is, but there isn’t actually one. I always think of creativity and leadership means what’s the ingredient that is needed right now? What do I need a little bit more of when there’s fear and anxiety and challenge?

This is where I find if we don’t have that consciousness, if we don’t have that practice of understanding internal motivators, understanding the messages that people say in between, it’s like how do I read between the lines? If I get too caught in details, then I end up being more of a mediator instead of actually someone helps people lead through what’s going on and make decisions that are supportive of themselves.

People can have agency to figure out what they need to do. It’s more about can I inspire them to make the move that is the healthiest for them and for their client, their colleague, or whomever. When there’s fear, and it’s really high, the brain shuts down.

Shaun: Oh, shuts down.

Dale: Big time, big time, big time. It’s like, how do I get this thought in that this person might see it as something that they could do to move? Consciousness, I need to be aware of how people are in fear. Their brain is closing. They can’t take the information. What would it compel us to do then to have people open where their brain’s like, “Yes, give it to me. Tell me. Tell me what you got for me, Dale. How do I do that?” How we ask questions in those moments really matter.

Shaun: If we can talk about fear for a second, because fear is one of those things, like you say, closes up, shuts down. My biggest criticism of myself is, and I think this is in relationships too, and with my kids, I’m sure it applies in leadership. If someone comes to me with a stressful situation, I’m a problem solver, so I want to say right away, “Well, this is what you need to do,” or “This is how to get it done.”

Sometimes they don’t want a solution. They just want to be heard. Does that also apply in business and in leadership with teams? Acknowledging their fear and allowing them to be inside of the fear as opposed to saying, “No, no, no, don’t be fearful. Don’t worry. It’s all going to be good. You got nothing to worry about.” The person is freaking out inside. How do you manage that?

That’s an emotional thing that you’re obviously not going to get inside that fear clump by trying to solve the problem right away. It sounds like you want some time where they can finally be open. How do you get through that moment, and what do you do, especially if you’re on a time crunch?

Dale: Someone said this to me the other day. I loved their feedback when I was sharing this, but they just said, “You don’t want to learn to swim when you’re drowning.” It’s what you do now. This is why I’m saying about desire. Oftentimes, I’m working with people, and they want the change, but they don’t want to do the work because it’s not crisis time yet. I’m saying, “Don’t wait until there’s a crisis. You really do need to practice.”

I think what happens is when you have a client or a colleague who’s in high fear where you experience that challenge or the anxiety, you’ve had that before, right? What do you think your best way to be with them is? You’re feeling their tension, their anxiety, their fear. What’s your way?

Shaun: Yell it out.

Speaker 4: Acknowledge, calm.

Dale: Acknowledge, calm, empathetic, supportive. How easy is it to do that when someone’s in front of you, they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t just believe this. This is really happening. I can’t believe it. Oh my gosh, and you told me that this is what I’m supposed to do”? What usually naturally happens to you?

Dale: Yes, you elevate. You see why this is a you thing, right? I always say if there’s someone spicy or they’ve got fire and I had fire, what do we have more of? We got double the fire. I need to dose my own. This is what conscious leadership is about. It’s how can I regulate when someone’s going like, “No, no, come with me up here. It’s really fun.” You’re like, “No, no, no, I really don’t want to. I just did the session with you all and Shaun. Shaun was reminding me about zenning myself, and all I want to do is throw some bombs.”

The practice matters. We learn to regulate even when someone else is going high. If we don’t, then we are outside of what’s called our window of tolerance, actually. This is where my capacity is, and I am above capacity. I need a way back.

Shaun: Where are places that we can practice this?

Dale: You could come hang out with me for one. Really, coaching is helpful. I’m not saying that you need to do that with me. You might want to do it with Shaun because he’s going to be more– I’m fun too, and I can do the splits. I don’t know if Shaun can, but–

Shaun: I can do splits.

Dale: You can do the splits, then come with me then. You’re going to have more fun.

Shaun: Yes, for sure. Splits, wins, every time.

Dale: You practicing your own awareness and one of the things that you can do is when you are with someone who is highly charged, even if you do this afterwards, if you write down, if you just look at, what was it? Can I pinpoint what was the exact thing that was charging them? What was it that triggered them? What was it that activated them? That’s where I find it’s really difficult for many people.

People say to me, John’s always like that. Sorry, John. Any John’s in your story. John’s always like that. He always does that. I watch for language like that. Imagine what happens when we say that about John? John’s always like this. A little louder.

Speaker 5: John believes it.

Dale: John believes it. Exactly. How does John treat that person? This is what I’m saying about consciousness. We’ll treat them exactly how we believe them to be. There’s no room for anything else. We’re not conscious of what else is possible with this person. It’s our own bias in essence. Again, if we understand motivations, we would go, “I can sift through all of what John was saying and go, ‘Okay, John has a need for support. That’s interesting.’” Went about it a little funky.

He was yelling, and he was wanting support. I don’t want to support him. That’s what we want to do is we want to see, “Do we understand internal motivations and what it creates?” Really, just how our thinking then creates what we say, which creates our behaviors out in the world.

Shaun: I think we always are comparing, contrasting, and then drawing from our own lives all the experiences that we’ve had as individuals. We see John, he’s having a little bit of a freak out for whatever reason. Then we want to try to understand where they’re coming from. As a parent, as a new dad, honestly, one of these things, this idea, I’ve read this book called Good Inside, but this idea that you assume that the other person’s intentions, they’re not coming from a bad place. It’s actually calling out for something that they need.

What is the need that they need right now? Acknowledging that and saying, “Listen, you’re not a bad person because you threw that binder across and you broke that plant.” It’s not proper behavior, and probably would be let go. You know what I mean? Assuming that where they’re coming from, finding the good place that they’re coming from, and how can I help with that issue? We are highly charged individuals.

How do you manage somebody? It’s also a workplace scenario. It’s not simply in your human relationships, which all applies, but in a workplace scenario where you have a certain level of standards, practices, behavioral expectations at the office within the team. If someone goes far outside that, how would you advise leaders to manage that?

Dale: It still is the same to me, though, because it still is a human response. That is a question I get often. People say, “So-and-so was so unprofessional.” I was like, “What did they do?” They’re so human that they got angry. Even if the way that they got angry, they threw the binder and broke the plant. It still is anger, and it still needs the same response. To me, it’s not about condoning behavior at all. It’s actually more that I need to understand what the need is.

What’s the internal motivator that created the anger? Actually, I want them to understand it. I want to coach in a way that you tell me what you were really looking for there.

Shaun: That’s interesting. Using questions is a good thing. “John, you’re always like this. John, tell me more.” Take me through actually script. What would you say to somebody in that situation?

Dale: I don’t actually have a script, but I can do it. Can someone tell me a challenge that they’ve had? You could, too, if you want.

Shaun: Let me see, what’s a good challenge I’ve had? You gave Steve the promotion, but I feel like I’ve been working as hard, if not harder. Why am I not getting the due that I’m owed?

Dale: What is it that you– I’d love for you to just share with me, what are all of the things when you think about this job, if you were to get the promotion?

Shaun: Look at the numbers. Yes, it’s all numbers. I’ve got numbers. I’ve seen his numbers. Plus, he’s obsessed with his car all the time. He’s outside doing his car, and he smokes. I’m not doing that. I’m even putting in the hours.

Dale: Let’s stay with you, though.

Shaun: Yes. I’m just saying, though, because compared to him, it’s all–

Dale: I don’t want you to compare yourself to him. I want you to tell me–

Shaun: I can’t help it because he’s the one who got the thing.

Dale: He’s not even here.

Shaun: I got another baby on the way, and I didn’t even know about it. This person showed up from Scarborough and told me about this 10 years ago thing that happened.

Dale: This is what happens when you’re clubbing. I’m not going to diss you for clubbing because I like a good clubbing.

Shaun: Yes, I liked clubbing, too, back in the day.

Dale: I want you to stay with me here for a second.

Shaun: Okay, I’m just really high right now.

Dale: This is what I noticed. Your clubbing got you another gift of a baby, which is beautiful.

Shaun: You call it a gift. I call it a debt.

Dale: I guess this is really about how you actually figure out what you want to do next. You’re looking at this promotion, and you’re wondering why you didn’t get it.

Shaun: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Dale: I just want you to track with me for just a moment, just so that I can really be here with you. I want you to share with me what are all of the things, all of the reasons why you know that you deserve it.

Shaun: I look at my numbers. I put so much energy in getting these numbers up. I look at the stats, and I’ve always been there. You know that I’m here at 5:00 in the morning every day. I don’t understand why.

Dale: What’s the part? What do you think is missing? What do you think?

Shaun: I don’t know. Maybe it’s true. At home, I’ve been feeling really stressed out, too. I’ve been very anxious. The cost of living is going up. There’s wars all over the world. I don’t even know what to do.

Dale: I know. I just want you to take a breath for just a moment. I get the war thing, but let’s just stay here because it is–

Shaun: Maybe I’m catastrophizing.

Dale: I’m listening to you, and I’m hearing about wars and all of that, and Steve getting the promotion.

Shaun: Don’t say his name.

Dale: I know. We won’t. We’ll call him John because I find that’s just really– John’s a safe word.

Shaun: Call him John, I like to call him jerk.

Dale: Stay with me. John, yes, breathe. Good. I’m hearing you talk about cost of living.

Shaun: Cost of living, pressures at home, new kid on the way that it was like she’s actually 15. I have no idea. She showed up.

Dale: You’ve got some catch-up to do?

Shaun: I got some catch-up to do.

Dale: What you’re really concerned about isn’t the promotion. It’s that you– What? Tell me.

Shaun: That’s right. It is. It’s probably more about just all the outside stuff. I see when jerk gets–

Dale: We’re not even focused. He’s not even here. We’re not even going to say his name, even. How about that? If he does, I’m out. If you really want your help, then…

Shaun: I’m sorry and all. I just want to be seen. I feel like I want to get the due that I deserved. I was third-line goalie, too. That was frustrating. I didn’t even start. This goes back further. Oh, this is deeper than what I thought.

Dale: Do you see? Do you think maybe if we focused on you just being so present to what’s happened, and it sounds like with your 15-year-old showing up, saying she wants to be in your life, and this other person.

Shaun: No, you know what? You know what you’ve helped me do right now? You’re helping me work through the true core issue. It isn’t about the person who got the promo. It’s about–

Dale: You did so well. Can we just take a moment of silence for you being able to do that? It’s really good.

Shaun: Thank you so much. Oh, my God. I’m recognizing this isn’t even about the promotion.

Dale: It’s not about the promotion.

Shaun: Well, listen, I’m still going to keep working as hard as I can here at the library, being an organizer.

Dale: I’m so glad.

Shaun: Thank you so much for helping me through this.

Dale: Earlier, when you were mentioning the goalie thing, maybe this year’s your year. I don’t know.

Shaun: Oh, I like that.

Dale: It doesn’t matter that you’re–

Shaun: I’m going to do peyote for the first time.

Dale: Why don’t we slow down a little bit?

Shaun: I like this. This is great role play. I feel good. Did you guys learn something there? I did. I learned that I have a kid that I didn’t even know about.

Dale: We just want to see you do right by your kid.

Shaun: I’m going to. She deserves a good dad, a half-dad. I’m not even sure yet. I got to go to Maury Povich and get a test on him. We’re going to see. Listen, I love that, and I love that process. I think that’s–

Dale: Can we name it? What did you notice?

Shaun: Well, I noticed it all comes back to me. It all goes inward. It all goes into fears. What are my fears? There’s a genuine frustration there sometimes. I think when people are trying so hard to get ahead and be their own leader in their own right, I guess recognition, acknowledgement, that is what everybody wants. If someone else gets it unfair, there’s all this blame game. You’re saying, though, that in those situations, if people are focusing on others, the energy, you kept bringing me back to myself.

Dale: Totally. Do you know why? Because anytime you talk about Steve, the power is all– He’s not even here, and there’s nothing I can do, and there’s nothing you can do. I understand it, but if I allow you to keep comparing yourself to him, you’ll never measure up anyway. I don’t have the magic wand for that, nor do you. When I was listening to you, I was like, “Is it the promotion? Is it really that?” I’m hearing that it is about being seen or heard, but I also think there’s something about a sense of security. The promotion seemed like it represented some kind of security.

Shaun: Of insecurity to me, which really has nothing to do with me.

Dale: That’s right. Nor with Steve. If I sense that if I had this promotion, then I would have the financial security to pay for my 15-year-old kid and to get back on that hockey game because I’m going to need, after being out for 20 years, I’m going to need–

Shaun: No more third line, bud. No more third line.

Dale: You’re going to need new knees, all of that. To be able to pay for all of that to get that security, I could hear a sense of security that was needed. This is what I find. The more that we coach and understand, we can go, “Oh, right, my role isn’t to then go, okay, I’m going to listen, and then, shoot, now, how am I going to give him the promotion? There’s only one job. I like Steve a lot. I like Steve.”

Shaun: I like Steve, too.

Dale: You didn’t sound like it, but yes.

Shaun: No, we’re fine. We play darts on Thursday. He’s good.

Dale: Nice. I just don’t want you to make him the target. This is the thing.

Shaun: I won’t. Exactly. It’s about helping your-

Dale: Darting his butt just is not going to look good.

Shaun: -client focus on them.

Dale: Totally, and what you can do. There’s nothing that I could tell you that will satisfy you. When you were naming earlier, because sometimes we do this as leaders, where we go, oh, we listen, and we definitely want to listen to hear, but I’m listening for, what is his deeper motivation? What’s his need? Why I could hear it was some sense of security. If I become the Oprah, you get a TV, and you get a TV, that doesn’t help you figure out what it is for you. I create another job for you. Then you’re there, and you’re like, “That dang Steve, though.” I’m doing the same thing and-

Shaun: It never ends.

Dale: It never ends. I don’t want to get caught in there. I find that happens often, is that we get caught. We get caught in the story, and it’s so addictive.

Shaun: We don’t want to get caught in the story. Speaking of getting caught, I love this idea of noticing your grip as a leader. Explain that. We have about five minutes left before we have to move through it, but explain a bit about that, and then I want to wrap up with your final thoughts and tools that maybe everybody here can use.

Dale: Absolutely. When you were mentioning earlier, it’s like you were asking if some things are cultural, right? I love the definition of culture as a people enacting a story.

Shaun: Love that.

Dale: We’re just acting out a story that we believe, and it could be for whatever reason, our cultural background, it could be our age, it could be our birth order, it could be any reason, but it’s our story that we enact. It really is our belief system. Sometimes, what I find, much like as we were doing that real play, is that the grip is like, you are holding on to, Steve is this, and Steve is that, and then I’ve got this 15-year-old, and I don’t even know if Maury is going to want me on that show. Does Maurice even exist? I don’t even know it. We grip onto something, actually believing that it’s like we’re actually moving, but actually, in ways, it’s just keeping us stuck.

I was sharing that there’s an image that I have when I think of this is I saw this meme, it was just the words, anyway. I had this image with it. The words are, “Let go, or you’ll be dragged.” I pictured a pickup truck with one of those thick ropes attached to it, and someone holding on. When you just need to let go, and you’re not, so you’re dragged all through the streets here, and you’re all dusty and dirty, and you’re like, “I don’t know what’s going on,” and it’s because we’re holding on.

I often find that we grip onto things, thinking that it’s the thing, it’s going to help us, but we need to release, we need to let go. I often find that, in leadership, we will, we are like, “I believe it’s supposed to be this way. My dad did it this way. My dad owned this organization and this is how we’re going to do it,” or, “I’ve learned those ways and I don’t have the,” as you were mentioning earlier, “the cognitive flexibility to go, ‘Oh, look at me gripping.’” It’s not the way, it’s a way.

Shaun: That reminds me of my daughter on her T-bar for the first time. You know the T-bar? The little– it’s got this thing. She did that. She was, the first time on T-bar, she got on her skis, she held on to this thing here, and then it got away from her, and she would not let go. Then she was dreading, and I’m screaming, “Let go.-

Dale: Let go, oh.

Shaun: -let go.” Then, when she let go, she was done with the T-bar-

Dale: I can imagine.

Shaun: -forever.

Dale: I imagine.

Shaun: I get it. It’s the same idea. I think that’s a great, easily thought of mechanism for moving forward.

Dale: Absolutely.

Shaun: As we close out, it’s interesting. What I’m hearing you say is that, first of all, there’s not one single way, and it’s really all about being flexible, being creative in your leadership style, listening is a big thing, but it’s not something– I have a note here saying how leadership isn’t something you necessarily achieve, but it’s something you nourish and develop. Talk about that.

Dale: That’s a similar thing. Again, leadership only shows up, it’s really needed, when there’s a challenge. I need to nourish my capacity to be with challenges in ways that doesn’t create harm. Really, it’s like leadership is really about how do I use my power? Am I exercising my power? Am I developing myself in a way that how I use my power, in particular when it’s challenging?

Does it actually create an environment where people open? If we are in a 911 situation, an emergency situation, it really is about how am I using my power in that moment that allows people to move? That’s what we need to do. We’re taking care of people. I really think that if I was just to give steps, I think it would be that first we look at, do we have the desire to help create the change? One. Many people do.

Two, who are the ones who are willing to build the awareness needed so that I could be in this conversation with the clients, the John’s of the world, especially when it’s challenging. It doesn’t matter what the challenge is. You don’t have to read the book and create, “When they are talking about they have a 15-year-old, what do I do? It’s on page 172.” It’s not like that. It’s just that there is a tension. It’s tension, anxiety, challenge, doubt, fear, worry.

When I see that, how do I want to be? I look at, am I listening for the need, or am I listening for their story? Listen for the need in their story. Then ask questions. Ask them. This is where it just takes time.

Shaun: Dude, that’s a big one. Asking questions versus making statements. I find that with my kids. I’m too busy making statements. No, you don’t want to do that. Versus, why do you want to do that?

Dale: Yes, or what will that give you?

Shaun: Oh, my God.

Dale: The one thing I would share just something for all of you, is when you ask a why question, like when you say, “Why did you do that?” Can you feel the energy of that? Why do you make that suggestion?

Shaun: It’s a little judgy.

Dale: Totally. If you ask a what question, if you turn your why’s into a what, like, “What did you get out of that?” or “What did you notice as a result of doing that?” You’ll completely change people’s reaction because the brain shuts down. A why is like, “Okay, I got to defend. Dukes up.” That’s what you can do.

Shaun: That’s a good tool. That’s a great tool. I’m also thinking about it with my kids, too. It’s everything goes through my kids now because I want to be a good leader for my kids.

Dale: Totally.

Shaun: Well, this is amazing. We talk about pride. This is our big theme here today. Building pride in your organization. I think just by being great leaders, by being an empathetic leader, by being creative. This has been very insightful, Dale. I can’t thank you enough. This has been a good– I hope I didn’t freak you out with my little role play.

Dale: You did great.

Shaun: I did party back in the day. That is true. I may or may not have made a baby with someone at Starbro in the ’90s. I may find that out later. Also, I just want to leave with this. I’m going to try. I’m going to see how far down I can get. I can’t get.

Dale: That’s good.

Shaun: No, it’s not good. That’s not good.

Dale: You didn’t split your pants. That’s good.

Shaun: That’s terrible. I am like, “That’s amazing.”

Shaun: Guys, let’s hear it for Dale Allen on REAL TIME.

Dale: Thank you.

Shaun: Dale, oh my God, this is 

Dale: Thank you.

Shaun: Thank you so much, Dale. What a pleasure. She’ll be around. Please hire her.

Dale: I’m with him. I like that. Thank you so much.

Shaun: All right. Be well. Be well.

Jeffrey Kerr, a REALTOR® and author of Barrier Free Real Estate: Achieving Freedom at Home has spent more than 20 years advocating for more accessibility in real estate and helping clients with disabilities navigate the process. Jeffrey joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to look at common accessibility setbacks in real estate and how all REALTORS® can help their clients overcome these barriers.

Transcript

Jeffrey Kerr: Designing homes for everyone, regardless of age or mobility, whether you’re eight or 88, that, to me, is the goal.

Shaun Majumder: Hey, guys. Today on REAL TIME, I speak with a gentleman named Jeffrey Kerr. He’s a real estate agent who has been working with people with disabilities as his clients for many years, all the way back to 2004. He’s got a great story to tell, and we’re going to go deep on what exactly accessibility means in the world of real estate. We’re going to talk about the features in homes, we’re going to talk about what’s working, what’s not, and I think you’re going to really enjoy it.

Let’s dig in. Buckle down. Here we go, my conversation with real estate agent Jeffrey Kerr. Oh, this is exciting. This is exciting, ladies and gentlemen of the world, whether you’re in real estate or not. We have an incredible guest today. Somebody who’s going to provide some deep insight, some long historical knowledge. Of course, today, joining us on REAL TIME is the one and only Jeffrey Kerr. He is going to tell us why he is such an amazing Blue Jay fan. That is why we’re here today to talk about.

We’re here to talk about the Jays. Of course, I’m kidding. We’re both being Jays. Let’s see it, baby. Yes, Jeffrey Kerr, Blue Jay fan, which we have to touch on a little bit, but really, that’s not what you do. Of course, you are a REALTOR^® who has lots of experience in making real estate more accessible, the journey more accessible. Accessibility is what we’re talking about today.

Something that I know, Jeffrey, I’ve taken for granted in my mind, when I’m thinking about real estate, and I was thinking about topics, and then when I saw your name come across, and I saw what we’re going to talk about today, lights went off. I’m like, “Of course. Oh, my gosh.” Thinking about all the people who need to have access. First of all, tell us a bit about your background and why you, in this discussion, and what accessibility in real estate means to you, but also to the world?

Jeffrey: Thank you, Shaun. It’s great to be here. I certainly appreciate the opportunity to come on the podcast and talk about accessible real estate. It’s something that I’ve been doing for a lot of years. I grew up in a family. My aunt had MS. My mom is an occupational therapist/physiotherapist who worked at Toronto Rehab. It was just a fact of life for me growing up in that environment. When it came to real estate, it was just a natural fit for me to work with people with disabilities and help them find a home that works for them.

For many years, I’ve written articles for the Canadian Paraplegic Association, which is now the Spinal Cord Injury Ontario. I’ve written articles for them. I’ve took those articles, and I’ve actually put them all together in a book, which I call Barrier Free Real Estate – Achieving Freedom at Home. I wrote this book basically as a resource for people who are suddenly in need of an accessible home, and they don’t know where to start.

Shaun: What percentage of your clients are those with disabilities?

Jeffrey: It varies from year to year, but on average, it’s probably about 65% to 70% of the buyers and sellers that I work with are people with disabilities or are looking for a home to accommodate someone.

Shaun: Right, because these are things that maybe, obviously, if you don’t have disabilities, it’s not top of mind, but, man, you are a very important specialist when it comes to this in terms of going through the checklist of what is needed to make a house more accessible. Why is it that accessibility in real estate matters, broadly speaking? Then I’d like to get down into some details about what exactly are those things per room that we need to think about when we’re thinking about accessibility?

Jeffrey: I think it’s important for everyone because everyone, regardless of their age, whether you’re eight or 88, you can appreciate an accessible home. It could be a parent pushing a stroller, it could be someone looking to age in place, it could be a family member that you want to welcome into your home. Regardless of the reason, accessibility is so important in our homes for everybody. Whether you realize it or not, there are people in your life that will benefit from an accessible home and being able to enjoy your home as much as you do when they come to visit.

It could be you have an injury, you sprain your ankle, and suddenly climbing the stairs are a challenge. It could be anything. You’re welcoming an older parent to come and visit, so having access to a washroom is important so that they can stay. There’s an entrance solution so that you can welcome people into your home. There’s just so many factors into it, and accessibility, I feel, is just important for everyone.

Shaun: When you first started thinking about this as a business model, in a way, what were the things, the barriers that you were seeing? Is the system already being conscious and doing their best to accommodate, or are you seeing that in the beginning it was really lacking, now there’s a little more awareness, so it’s becoming more prevalent in the discussions, or are you saying it’s right where it needs to be right now? Where would you say, on the scale, the overall buying and selling experience is like for people who need accessibility?

Jeffrey: To circle back, I’ve been a REALTOR^® since 1999, so for quite a few years. Back when I started focusing on accessibility around 2004, there was one other real estate agent in Ontario that was focusing on working with people with disabilities. There really was no model to follow there. There really wasn’t a lot of information out there to help find homes that are accessible or could be made accessible. Slowly, over the years, that’s improving.

What I found early on, it was a question of understanding what people’s needs are and then going through the listings and identifying homes that could meet those needs. Fast forward to today, the real estate boards are getting a little better in gathering information on the homes and the accessibility features within those homes. It’s a little easier to find properties, but it’s still, in my opinion, it’s not where it needs to be.

Shaun: What was it that inspired you to say, “Oh, these are the people that are not being looked at. We need to take care of that. In my newfound, I got my license. Here we go. I know I can specialize.” Was there one specific incident that made you say, “Oh, this is what I want to do and focus on,” or was that the reason you got into real estate to begin with? Tell me about that story, about what made you say, “Oh, this has got to be for me.”

Jeffrey: I think the aha moment was in 2004 when my aunt needed to sell a pre-construction condo that she purchased in the mid-’90s. It was supposed to be wheelchair accessible. My aunt and uncle went into the sales office, bought what they were told was a wheelchair accessible condo. Through construction delays, my uncle had passed on before that condo was ready for occupancy. I was with Aunt Jean when she rolled through the front door, and she knew very quickly that she couldn’t live there independently.

She handed me the keys and said, “Jeff, I need you to sell this condo for me.” The condo had a really good bathroom, large bathroom with a roll-in shower, but the kitchen itself was a joke. It was so poorly designed, there was no way that she could live there independently and look after meals. I actually started researching selling accessible condominiums and there was no resources out there.

I met with, gentleman who name is Kevin Rogers at, at the time, it was called the Canadian Paraplegic Association. I was asking him what his advice was to market this condominium. He provided some advice for me. We had a great chat. At the end of the chat, he said, “Jeff, our community really needs someone with your background and your willingness to learn to help find accessible homes.” That was the moment where things became clear in my mind that this is something that is a natural fit for me. Again, it was a good business opportunity as well. It was a perfect fit.

Shaun: That’s amazing. I love that. Did you feel like, “Oh, this is almost a newfound purpose?” It sounds like to do what you did when you jumped in, the things that motivated you to get there, it wasn’t as simple as, “I’m going to get my real estate license, and I’m just going to–” You were motivated by a passion and a vision for what was missing.

Jeffrey: Yes. Going even further back, I was building houses before I got my real estate license. I got my license to help sell the homes that I was building. That in itself gave me a really good understanding of homes, how they’re built, and how to identify homes that could be modified for accessibility. Then accompany that with the accessibility side of things. Again, it was just a really good fit. It’s also very rewarding. I get an opportunity to work with some fantastic people who have challenges that they need solutions for. I’m able to help them find solutions. Again, it’s a very rewarding part of my business.

Shaun: I think we take for granted some of these challenges. Take me through some of those things, but first, actually, I want to ask you, what are some of the shortfalls that you’ve noticed making it harder for those with mobility issues or those with visual or auditory limitations when it comes to searching for a home?

Jeffrey: The information that’s shared out there is not immediately evident as to what the accessibility features are or how these homes can be modified. It starts with disseminating information and finding properties that can work, are already accessible, or can be modified to meet my client’s challenges. It always starts with a conversation with a person as to what are their needs. There’s the traditional real estate questions, location, budget, but when it comes to barrier-free accessible real estate, then it’s a question of what are the individual’s specific needs that need to be accommodated within their home, and then helping them find that perfect fit.

Shaun: It’s not one size fits all?

Jeffrey: It definitely is not one size fits all. Every individual is unique, and the solutions that work for them have to be unique and tailored to them as well.

Shaun: You had mentioned earlier that it’s not clear when you’re doing a search which houses are accessible or have accessibility features. If I’m just a person who is looking for a home and I want to do a broad search, I don’t even have an agent yet, I would love to be able to go and see what houses do have accessibility features and which ones don’t.

Jeffrey: Buyers love searching on REALTOR.ca. People are addicted to it.

Shaun: Love it.

Jeffrey: It’s great. They do their research, and then they reach out and say, “Hey, I want to look at this house. If that resource was able to provide additional information about accessibility features, then that would be a definite bonus.

Shaun: Let’s talk about some of those features. For example, can we go through what some of these features might be? In the dream world, where we can say, “This is what’s going to be in the listing,” what are some of those features that most of your clients are looking for?

Jeffrey: The two main features are definitely an entrance solution and a bathroom solution. You’ve got to be able to get in and out of the home or condominium safely, and the bathroom is necessary, obviously, to be able to stay. Those are probably the two primary features that buyers would be looking for. How do I get in and out of the home? What does the bathroom look like?

Shaun: I think if I were just to take that for granted, stairs are obviously not for everybody. The solution would be, would you look for a home that would have the ability to create a ramp, or it comes with a ramp? Am I right in assuming that that would be a solution to stairs?

Jeffrey: Yes. The entrance solution can take many different possibilities, a ramp, a landscape ramp, a wood ramp, a metal ramp, or it could even be a platform lift on the outside of a house. It depends on the height difference from the outside grade to the front door threshold. What’s that height? Can it be reached by a ramp, or would a ramp be too steep? We’ve got to look at doing a platform lift.

Shaun: Talk to me about the bathroom.

Jeffrey: We always have to talk about the bathroom. Generally, when I’m talking with a buyer for the first time, the conversation quickly goes to the bathroom, because it’s, what are their specific needs within a bathroom? Is it a zero-threshold roll-in shower? Is it a bathtub where they could work with a bath bench and then transfer into the bathtub? It is one of the first conversations, and it’s one of the more important ones.

Shaun: It’s very important. Getting on and off the toilet, entering the bathroom, the shower space is really important, the bathtub space is really important. When you’re looking for a house, how much of it are you looking for that is already built in versus the ability to modify?

Jeffrey: The majority of the clients that I work with, we look for a house that can be modified for their needs, and there’s a couple reasons for that. Finding an accessible home that’s ready to go and available is pretty rare, and a lot of those homes were modified for a specific individual. Once they have a home that meets their needs, they stay for as long as they can in that property. They don’t come up for sale very often.

If they do, is there a buyer out there who can make use of the accessibility features in that home? If it was modified for a specific individual, or was it modified more for universal design, which can accommodate anybody regardless of age or mobility? To go back to your question, the majority of my buyers end up buying a house or a condo that they can modify for their needs so they can make it exactly what they need it to be.

Shaun: What about kitchen?

Jeffrey: For the most part, I found people can make do with traditional kitchens as long as there’s room enough to maneuver a wheelchair, particularly if you’re cooking in a seated position. If an individual is living by themselves, then maybe they need to be looking at a modified kitchen. Kitchens can vary quite a bit. There’s a lot of modifications you can make in a kitchen to make it accessible, like a roll-under sink, lower countertops, ovens, or a cooktop that have the controls on the front so that individuals don’t have to reach over a hot element in order to change the temperature. There’s a lot of safety features that have to be considered.

Shaun: Then I also heard there’s a way to sometimes– Some of it is pretty inventive and creative. I heard about you can push a button and things lower to you. You can get these built into your home?

Jeffrey: Yes. There’s a company that will modify your kitchen cabinets so that the inside of the cabinets actually will lower down to the counter height. Then you can place your items on the shelves, and then hit a button or click a remote, and then the shelves rise back up. There’s also shelving that was on a handle so that you can pull them down to a lower level. There’s a lot of technology and innovation out there to make the kitchen accessible.

Shaun: Then as I’m walking through the home, I guess there’s the entrance issue with stairs that can be resolved. What about within a home, going up and down the stairs if there are stairs or multi-leveled homes?

Jeffrey: A lot of homes are too small. The footprint is too small to add a mechanical lift between two floors. A big part of looking for an accessible home is finding a space that could accommodate an elevator. An elevator being an elevator in an enclosed shaft that goes between three or more floors. There’s also a product called a telecab, which is essentially like a London telephone booth that goes between two floors. That gets mounted on a load-bearing wall, runs on a track, and that’s sometimes a little easier to fit into a home.

Two-story homes, I think, are good in that they often have a lot more square footage. With the cost of real estate, the majority of the cost of a home is land value. It’s not always possible to find a large ranch bungalow that’s all in one level. A lot of people have to consider a two-story home and then find a solution to get up to the second floor.

Shaun: What about when we think about people with auditory or visibility challenges, what are some of those features that are considered in the buying and selling of homes?

Jeffrey: In condominiums now, for those who are hard of hearing or deaf, you’ll notice with the smoke detectors now, they have strobe lights. It’s not just a siren or an alarm that goes off. It’s actually a strobe light that is very, very powerful. There’s also, for lack of a better word, like a thumper that you can put in your bed so that if the smoke alarm or the CO detector goes off in the night, it actually wakes you up-

Shaun: Wow.

Jeffrey: -in your bed. There’s definitely technology out there that can help in the home-buying, home-selling process.

Shaun: I love that. Now, with the advancement of technology in terms of lighting and switches and air conditioning, heat, HVAC, what are some of those advances that you’re seeing that are not only convenient for people with accessibility needs, but just generally speaking?

Jeffrey: The whole home can be automated from opening doors to turning on lights to turning on motion sensor faucets. Pretty much everything in a home can be automated so that if someone’s not able to physically do the tasks themselves, they can use something like Google Home and just say, “Hey, Google, turn on the light,” or “Hey, Google, open the door.” There’s so many options right now in home automation, and it really provides a lot of flexibility and freedom for people to live independently at home.

Shaun: Yes. Jeff, I know that there are some organizations, there are some places in Canada that are starting on the good foot there. They’re leading the charge. I’m actually here in Nova Scotia now where I’ve recently repatriated to, and as it turns out, the Nova Scotia Association of REALTORS^® are really working hard to include more of those details in listings, really trying to shine a light on those features that are needed in the accessibility space.

Jeffrey: Absolutely. I think it’s a great pilot project. I can speak to what’s happening in Ontario. Over the last few years, there’s more and more data that’s being collected for homes and the accessibility features. I think it’s so important to have that data and make it available. It’s not just in Nova Scotia and Ontario, but all across Canada, this needs to be done so that everybody across the country has as easy access to the data and searching for homes.

I can’t stress the importance of having floor plans for people to understand the flow of the home and being able to look at options for increasing a bathroom size. I think floor plans are crucial. They’re definitely a valuable tool in the listing, along with all of the room data and the features data.

Shaun: Right. Now, is there something to be said about the definition of what makes something an accessibility feature? If I’m selling and I want to brand it as, “This is an accessible home,” because we said it’s not the same for everyone, is there some kind of criteria that makes something specifically thumbs up, it gives us the accessibility approval?

Jeffrey: The short answer is no. I think it’s somewhat subjective to the individual who’s inputting the listing as to what features, if they consider them accessible. Now, some of the criteria in terms of door widths, is there a roll-in shower? Is there an elevator? Those features are very specific. I find that there’s a lot of listings out there that say they’re accessible, but when you drill down, they’re just talking about being accessible to the bus stop or accessible to the grocery store. It doesn’t always line up with accessible from a mobility accessibility point of view. Accessible doesn’t really have, I guess, a set definition when it comes to listing.

Shaun: I think of even your Aunt Jean, was it? Jean, she thought it was going to be, and then she gets in and is like, “No, this is not going to work.”

Jeffrey: Yes, exactly. Had she had some more information about the kitchen layout, then yes, she probably would have known it more in advance that that wasn’t going to work for her. That’s a great example. You’ve got to have more information.

Shaun: Now, that was in 2004, and you have been working with clients for so many years. I’m sure a lot of agents who are watching this, REALTORS^® watching this now, are like, “Yes, I want to be more involved and work with those clients more.” What is a respectful way to approach accessibility in real estate with clients?

Jeffrey: I think it starts with a conversation. Every client is going to have a unique set of needs. It’s just a question of talking to them, asking them what an accessible home means to them, and what are their needs, and just helping to understand how language is so important. How would you like me to speak to you? I always default to person-first language. People with disabilities, you’re a person with a disability.

I have a client who said, “No, Jeff, I’m a disabled person. That’s how I want to be referred to.” That’s their choice, but that’s just a conversation that we had so that I can speak to them in a way that they’re comfortable with. I don’t think people need to be intimidated by it. Just simply ask the individual the questions. There’s a saying that I love. It’s nothing about me without me.

Shaun: Oh, I love that.

Jeffrey: Nothing about me without me. Don’t make decisions on behalf of a person without asking them first. I think that’s just so important. People love to be heard and listened to. People will always be happy to tell you their story. You’ll learn information, and you’ll learn how to speak to them effectively and respectfully, and then just take it from there.

Shaun: I think it’s just like any personal one-on-one relationship. When you’re developing a relationship, a bond, a shorthand, this relationship is going to last for a while because you really want to get to know, whether they are a person with disabilities or not, you always want to know what are their needs, what are their wants. In this case, it sounds like you don’t need to tiptoe around anything. Just having a direct conversation asking, how do you like to be referred? How do you see yourself? What can I do to accommodate that? I think that just is, it’s almost common sense, but maybe in the world we live in where people, they’re not sure. I think it’s good hearing that from you.

Jeffrey: It’s not a quick and easy transaction. There’s always some extra layers. There’s always extra time. Working with people with disabilities is not for a person who likes to do a quick sale, a quick buy. That’s not going to happen. It takes time to understand the client and to find them the right home. There’s a lot of extra layers in terms of bringing in accessibility consultants to make sure that the home can be modified properly. There’s a lot of extra considerations. That’s why you need to be willing to spend that extra time with a client to make sure that It’s done properly.

Shaun: I love that. When I think about some of these features and these elements, some of them, they actually sound beneficial to able-bodied and persons with disabilities. Talk to me about universal design. Talk to me about, are there– We know it’s not one size fits all, but clients are obviously thinking about resale value as well. A young person coming up, they know they need certain features in the house, but then they know that what if they want to move on? What if they get a job somewhere else in a different city? They want to sell their house. How are people with disabilities thinking about the resale value, or are they? Are most people, when they find their house, they stay? Talk to me a bit about that.

Jeffrey: I think for the most part, if someone buys a home and has it modified for their needs, they’ll stay there for as long as they can. There’s certain modifications that can be made that are very– They make the home more saleable. For instance, a zero-threshold shower. I also call it a roll-in shower. That’s probably one of the features that is most in demand with the clients that I work with. That feature, an elegant roll-in shower, is beneficial for everyone regardless of age or mobility. A lot of homes now are being built with these elegant zero-threshold showers. It’s just a nice feature to have, and that definitely adds to the resale value.

On the other side of the coin is features that may be right for the individual, but not necessarily great on the resale value. I actually find, as an example, would be a walk-in tub. Those are fantastic for individuals who need them or like to use them. They’re great tools. I always tell my clients, if that’s something that you want, and that helps you live independently and comfortably in your home, then absolutely put one in, but when it comes to resale, don’t expect to get your money back out of it because finding the buyer who wants that feature is pretty rare.

Shaun: Because people love bathtubs, people love taking baths, are there ults to that?

Jeffrey: There’s not a lot of options when it comes to bathtubs. I agree with you. There’s a lot of people who are bathtub people. They absolutely want a bathtub. If that’s what’s necessary, then go for it. There’s also a chair that you can put in the bathtub that will then lower you into the tub. That’s an option too. Again, it comes down to the individual and what works for them.

Another example are chair glides where you have a staircase where you have a mechanical chair that glides up the stairs. They’re very helpful for people who are able to walk but maybe not navigate stairs, but when it comes to the resale value, I find that people aren’t willing to pay a premium for a chair glide. They’re more of a temporary fix for the individual. Again, a walk-in tub, it’s difficult to get the money back out of those when it comes to resale.

Shaun: What are the other considerations? When you’re talking to real estate agents who are out there, what are some other things to consider when you’re engaging with clients?

Jeffrey: The accessibility consultants, we touched upon it earlier. I think it’s really important that when an individual is looking at a home that you bring in the experts to confirm that the specific modifications can be done. Again, what the cost is. It’s one thing to be able to do the renovation, but what’s it going to cost? Then there’s the safety component of it. Is there a second means of getting out of the home in an emergency?

A lot of people are concerned with high-rise buildings. They want to be on the ground floor of a condominium because they want to be able to get out in an emergency. The solution for that is called an evacuation chair. These are fold-up portable chairs that you can have either in the stairwell or in your unit that in a case of an emergency, you can transfer into the chair, and then someone can push you down the stairs because they have tracks on them that are designed to be pushed down a staircase.

Shaun: Wow.

Jeffrey: That’s a solution for people who are concerned about living in a high-rise. Fire department ladders will only go up to the seventh floor, and that’s only if the fire truck can get right beside the building. When you look at most downtown cores, there’s buildings popping up everywhere, and they’re multi-story. How do you get out in an emergency? In a evacuation chair.

Shaun: This has been such an important conversation. I think REALTORS^® and real estate agents, they need to get caught up on all of this information. I think it’s important to be able to connect with many people of all kinds. In closing, what are your things that, number one, you feel like the system needs to really catch up on, whether it be in the listings or what have you? What are other ways? Are there builders that need to consider more things? What would you do if you could be in control of everything? What would you change? What do you think is working? What do you think, Jeff?

Jeffrey: I think there’s a lot of things that are working and that just needs to be improved on in terms of getting that data, getting that information out there to the public and helping everybody find homes that are accessible because when an accessible home comes on the market, it’s really important to find the right buyer for that home, a buyer who appreciates all the accessibility features. That’s certainly one thing.

Builders. There’s a builder in Toronto, the Daniels Group, that is ahead of the curve in terms of offering pre-construction condos that are fully accessible. There’s another group that’s called the Accelerating Accessibility Coalition, which is a group of builders and professionals that are involved in the building industry. This group has got together to advocate accessibility and to promote accessibility.

These are all things that are happening that are very positive and important. I certainly want to see these initiatives to continue. Again, it’s just having a conversation and just willingness to learn. That’s how I got started way, way back. I just had a willingness to learn. You talk to the right people and you talk to your clients and just be open-minded.

Shaun: It’s amazing because from what I understand, if I’m thinking about people who may come as clients, they’re all going to be from all kinds of backgrounds and even with different disabilities. Talk to me a bit about that, some of the people that you’ve worked with.

Jeffrey: Aging in place is very popular now. There are people wanting to stay in the homes and in the communities that they’re comfortable in. Can their homes be modified over time to accommodate their deteriorating mobility? That’s something to consider as well. Again, going back to designing homes for everyone, regardless of age or mobility, whether you’re eight or 88, being able to live independently in that home for as long as you want, that, to me, is the goal.

Shaun: Thank you so much for doing what you do. This has been an incredibly insightful conversation.

Jeffrey: Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it and I appreciate you bringing me on the pod.

Shaun: You got it. See you, Jeff. Go Jays go. Thanks so much, Jeffrey. What a great conversation, shining a light on accessibility issues in real estate. I learned a lot. I hope you guys did too. Of course, if you liked today’s episode, be sure to like and subscribe wherever you digest your favorite podcast. Of course, today’s episode is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), production brought to you by Alphabet^® Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Thanks for joining us on REAL TIME. We’ll see you next time on REAL TIME. What a time. What a time.

Katie Hession, also known as YOWCityStyle on Instagram, recently expanded her career to real estate. YOWCitySold is where she now leverages her experience as a professional social media influencer to build her business in real estate. She joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to share her journey from influencer to REALTOR®, why authentic content is always going to rise above, and how fellow REALTORS® can leverage social media to form stronger connections with their community and grow their business.

Transcript

Katie Hession: You don’t have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great. I used to be a Christmas elf for Santa Claus at the shopping mall.

Shaun Majumder: Amazing. Shaun is a wizard. You know, these days personal brand can lead to professional success, but what exactly does that mean? Personal brand, what is my personal brand? You know what? Social media plays a huge role in everything we do in life. As REALTORS^®, how can, in this day and age in 2026, how can we leverage social media to help with our professional success and grow our brand, both professionally and personally, and how they come together?

Today we’re talking to Katie Hession. She’s an influencer. She’s been through the social media game for the last 10 years and is now officially jumping into the real estate game. You can follow her on YOWCityStyle or most recently at YOWCitySold. When I say YOW, I do mean Y-O-W, Ottawa peeps. You know what I’m talking about. This is really exciting because, for somebody who has taken a personal brand and also been able to help other people build their personal brands, and now turning that into a professional brand and is about to grow, it’s going to be exciting to hear our conversation with Katie Hession.

Katie Hession, I’m so stoked that you’re here. I’m so stoked that we’re going to have this conversation today. We’re going to talk about personal brand. We’re going to talk about your business brand, how they come together, something that, you know, a lot about and have been building over the years, which is so cool. In this world we live in now, man, so much lives online and who you are personally, but when we’re talking to our REALTORS^®, how important is the personal brand right now in everything that we’re doing in business, especially in the real estate space? How important is that, or will this just be a fad and it’ll be gone in a few years, and we can all just get back to the old school of putting up flyers?

Katie: I mean, you can choose to do it or not to do it, but I think one of the things that’s always top of mind for a REALTOR^® is looking at their sphere of influence and having a personal brand online is really just a way of taking that on turbo speed or magnifying it like crazy. My online community obviously is filled with people who I actually do know in real life, but then there’s a lot of people in there that I’ve never met and hope to meet one day.

Shaun: Right. Give us some of your background. Tell us where you were raised, but then also, how did you get into this space? Why did you get into this space, and how has it evolved over time?

Katie: It’s a long story, but I’m an Ottawa girl born and raised. I mean, if we want to go as far back, my resume is pretty colourful. I used to be a Christmas elf for Santa Claus at the shopping mall.

Shaun: Amazing.

Katie: I know. Always on the good list. I studied sociology and business at Bishop’s University. My first job was working in the audience research department at the CBC.

Shaun: Oh, interesting.

Katie: Then I went on to get my teaching degree in Australia, came back, taught special ed in Toronto for just over 10 years, moved back to Ottawa, and worked in the nonprofit space for a nonprofit called Mealshare helping to feed kids by working with local restaurants. Now I’m here. I think one of the main things as a common thread throughout my whole life is that I enjoy being a connector. I always remember what people do, what they need, and I love bringing people together to make some magic and make their lives better.

Shaun: That’s built into your DNA. Some people I know, if you think back now in high school, you think about those people back in the day. They were always at the rallies. They were always face-first in all the fundraising stuff. Were you one of those people? Where do you think you get that from?

Katie: You’re right. I was definitely on student council and worked at summer camps. I’ve always been just very outgoing. I think I’m a lot like my dad and also like my grandmother, who was also a REALTOR^®.

Shaun: Oh, no way.

Katie: Yes, I think I definitely, my whole life, people would tell me that I was so much like her. Then again, for years now, everyone’s like, “You’re so much like her. You’ve got this personality that just would be really great for real estate.” I’ve thought about her a lot during this journey.

Shaun: Oh, that’s amazing. I love that personal connection that helps you make decisions later in life of like, oh, no, wait a minute. I thought I was here. Maybe I’m more here, and the spirit of grandma or nana, Nan. What would you call her?

Katie: Her name was actually Bonga.

Shaun: Bonga.

Katie: Bonga.

Katie: Not her real name, but that was her grandma name. I think it was one of my cousins.

Shaun: That’s amazing.

Katie: She couldn’t say grandma. Yes.

Shaun: Because she was a REALTOR^®, you were around it. You saw her. You saw her connecting with people. You saw her involvement in the community. You obviously aligned with that. This real estate idea has been probably brewing for a while now because I know you do a lot of social media. Tell us, you’re YOWCitySold, but you’re also YOWCityStyle on Instagram. Tell us how you took that social media side of things, and now, it’s blended with the real estate side of things. You’re obviously just a people connector.

Katie: Yes. Not just online, in-person as well. It really has been a long time coming. I did start my real estate license back in 2005, 20 years ago. That was when I had my teaching degree, but there weren’t really any teaching jobs. It’s like, okay, everybody’s always told me that I’d make a good REALTOR^®, so I started it. Then, of course, ended up getting offered a job, so I shelved it.

Then I picked it up again right before the pandemic. I was supposed to write my first exam March 2020 and had to shelf it again. Then, about two years ago, I started the program again. It just felt like the right time. At this point, I’ve bought and sold two of my own homes. My kids are a little bit older, and I’ve got this great network online that I think is going to be very helpful.

Shaun: Right. Wow, the real estate thing has been brewing for a while, but then, where did the social media side start? Why did you jump into social media? What was social media like when you started versus what it’s like now? Where do you see it going in the future?

Katie: It’s actually been about 10 years now that I’ve been online. I lived in Toronto for most of my 20s, moved back to Ottawa when I was a mom. While I was on maternity leave, that was when we moved back. I was just trying to figure out the city. Again, I grew up here, so I do know the city quite well, but I needed to get reacquainted with it. Again, like we had said, the people say it’s a bit of a boring city. I was like, “You know what? I don’t believe that.” I remember somebody saying to me, “There’s actually a lot going on, but you just need to know the right people and where it’s happening.”

I saw that there was this lack for a resource. I wasn’t going to start a magazine or a newspaper or anything like that, but starting a page on Instagram seemed like an easy thing to do. I started it, actually, by featuring other people. I would find somebody who I figured was a tastemaker in the city, and I would ask them, what’s the hidden gem in Ottawa that a lot of people don’t know about? I wanted to always make sure that it was something local-specific. You couldn’t say a big-name restaurant that you like going to. It needed to be a local business here in Ottawa because, really, I really believe that local businesses are a huge part of what gives a city its unique identity.

Shaun: Not a chain that came in from the States, and now everybody loves going to that particular one on so-and-so street. You’re saying, “No, this is an Ottawa staple. This is very specific to Ottawa,” right?

Katie: Yes, something you couldn’t find anywhere else.

Shaun: Right.

Katie: Then I landed two writing jobs for two different magazines and realized things are getting going here. Then I was also asked to be the stylist and spokesperson for one of our local shopping malls. That got me going on morning television, doing presentations about fashion, and that’s when the brand deals really started to come in. I was really starting to get recognized.

Shaun: Which is more powerful right now, would you say, social media or television?

Katie: I believe social media.

Shaun: Yes.

Katie: It’s just an easier way to connect to people. If you’ve got a link to buy something, it’s right there. Even here in Ottawa, a local business that I worked with, he went on TV, and he also worked with me. The difference was quite big. I brought him a lot more customers.

Shaun: Right. There’s something really direct to either your—in my case, if I want people to come out and see me do standup, or if I have a new thing going on, to talk directly to them is different than putting on a face of like, hey, I’m here to promote something to the massive public. When you’re talking directly to somebody, they feel it, and they probably respond in a stronger way. What do you think is the most important thing when, whether it’s REALTORS^® or just people who are trying to expand their personal brand? What are those things that are most important when putting themselves out there?

Katie: I think that a strategy that I’ve had the whole time that hasn’t really been a strategy is just showing up as myself. Most of my audience is here in Ottawa, so I will meet people online, meet them in person, and often people comment that I am the same person, whether I’m digital or in real life. Really showing up consistently as the same person over time.

Shaun: Are there some people who, online they’re one thing, and then you’ve met people in person, you’re like, wait a minute, that’s not the same?

Katie: For sure. Even how people look sometimes, if they’re using filters to change the way that they look online, and then you meet them in person. I’m a filter-free page. I did use them a long time ago, but I haven’t used a filter in years.

Shaun: Do you think that people respond more, I wouldn’t say positively or negatively, but I think in the changing face of a digital landscape, the more real, the better, I would think?

Katie: For sure. I think the introduction of AI recently is pretty important for that. Mosseri from Instagram said that they are even having a hard time distinguishing between what is AI content and what is real content because the AI is getting so good. What we’re seeing now as a trend is that content that’s going to perform better, it’s things that are a little bit more raw, a little bit less perfect. You don’t want things to look too polished, otherwise, the audience is going to think it’s AI.

Shaun: Is that going to be counterintuitive, though, for the real estate game? I personally get that, and I think that’s important. My dog, the other day, I took a video, and I put her online on my social media, and she spoke English, and then she flew away, which is not real. That does not happen in my household. That was completely generated by AI, but people are probably going to be like, “Shaun is a wizard.” In terms of being counterintuitive in the real estate game, because if you go too unpolished, is there a risk, then, of being like, this person is not very professional? You know what I mean?

Katie: Yes, we obviously want to be polished to a professional level, but I’m trying to think of an example. I did a video recently for a furniture company, and in my filming, I stumbled over my words. When we edited the video, we actually started it with a little blooper and then got into the real video. Just showing she’s a human, she doesn’t speak perfectly all the time. There is a way to show that rawness and that realness without coming across as unprofessional.

Shaun: I know you have a few different pages, a few different accounts. What’s the difference between Katie Hession, YOWCityStyle, and YOWCitySold?

Katie: I like to think of them as different lanes, but all with the same driver. Katie Hession, that’s me. That’s the foundation. That’s where my values, my personality, my voice come from. Like I said before, I really, truly make sure that who I am showing up online is who you get in real life. I’m very active in the Ottawa community. I’m a spin instructor. I host charity rides all the time.

Actually, I’m at almost every charity event in the city. That’s me. That can’t be replicated. Then you’ve got YOWCityStyle, and that’s where I show up online expressing more my playful, creative lifestyle side of myself. That’s still rooted in community and storytelling about Ottawa, and just my life enjoying it. I like to be a resource for my audience there. In fact, on a Friday night, I can get a DM from somebody like, we’re a group of 40-year-old girls. Where do we go for a cocktail at 10 PM? I’m a lifeline here. People DM me these questions constantly.

Shaun: You respond.

Katie: I respond.

Shaun: Right? That’s important.

Katie: Really, YOWCityStyle is an extension of this community that I’ve built in real life, but then there’s all these people who I hope to meet one day. Sometimes I see them on the street and get to meet them, which is wonderful. Then when we get into YOWCitySold, which is newer, I’m still focusing on living in Ottawa, but it’s just a different level of service and guidance and trust and obviously talking about real estate because trust and professionalism in real estate is so important. I really focus on that when I’ve got my YOWCitySold hat on. I want that because people are making their biggest life decision here and trusting me with it.

Shaun: That’s awesome. You’ve got three hats essentially, your personal, it’s almost like you’re in service to the city, but it all comes back to your personal brand, but YOWCityStyle is a little broader, more social, more fun, and then getting down to business with YOWCitySold, real estate focus. Is that difficult? I would think not with you because you are so authentic through all of them.

Katie: It’s not difficult, but it’s also strategic because a lot of people are like, “Oh, wow, you’ve got this great following on YOWCityStyle.” If I were to start talking about real estate to a much higher level and using that as my main platform to sell, I would imagine I would probably lose some of my community there. I wanted to start a separate page where I could put a lot more content about that there. Then, obviously, using the two channels to cross-pollinate a little bit. You’ll see more of me as a real estate agent on YOWCitySold, and then YOWCityStyle is more my day-to-day life.

Shaun: You really, even though you started the journey back in 2005, and now you just got your license two years ago, is that correct?

Katie: Officially? No, in December. I’m fresh. 

Shaun: Oh, dog. That’s amazing. I love that. For you to get to this level now, but it has been since 2005 you started that process, you envisioned yourself in that space because you have an amazing grandmother who led the way. Now you’re on the cusp. You’re starting from zero, in a way. Not, but sort of.

Katie: I wouldn’t say I’m starting from zero. Again, I’ve been pretty intentional with the types of partnerships that I’ve taken on over the last five-plus years, knowing that this was my end goal. Again, I wouldn’t want anything on YOWCityStyle to impact any of my trust or credibility for real estate. It’s been a long time coming. I have been able to help with social media in the real estate world over the last five or so years. I’ve always been just tiptoeing into it. Now it’s official.

Shaun: Do you have specific tips? You’ve been in the game for 10 years. Give me your top three or four, whatever you would like to share with the world. For REALTORS^®, in the next year or so, what would be some specific Katie Hession tips for social media?

Katie: I’d like to go back to our conversation about AI. With the rise of AI, it’s really important that we stand out from AI. Embrace that imperfection to stay human. Being completely perfect online is not going to be your edge. I think that we need to think about those things that only you uniquely can do, like your personality, your opinions, your real-life experiences. How can you bring that into your content to show that you’re a real person and not a robot? Again, like I said, one of my biggest strategies this whole time was just being myself. Obviously, you want to be open without really exposing yourself. I think about, would you walk into the lunchroom at work and talk about these things?

Shaun: That’s a good bar.

Katie: I remember when I was going through the grueling licensing program here in Ontario, I was taking my audience along for the ride. Anytime I went in to write an exam, I told them I was going in to write it, and then I’d have to come out and tell them how I did. I was on a good roll, getting high 80s. Then one of my friends was like, “Katie, what if you don’t pass one of your exams?” I was like, “That’s the reality of what happens.” It did happen. You need 75% to pass. I got 73%. I was pretty gutted, and I showed up online in my stories, and I told everyone. The amount of supporting messages that rolled in was incredible.

At this point, I’d done a few exams, and my people were really cheering for me. Obviously, to share in my misery was wonderful, but then there was a lot of comments also that came in that just said, “It’s so amazing that you are being so vulnerable and actually sharing not being perfect, because that’s what makes us human.” That’s what makes you relatable. Just shed the idea of being completely perfect online. Find that rawness or realness that is a professional level to share at the right times.

Shaun: That, to me, sounds like, in the future, that’s going to be a premium. Really cutting through the noise because there’s so much noise online. So much noise, and some is nice and perfect, and some is broken. Even the broken stuff feels like you don’t know anymore what’s real and what isn’t. Finding that personal voice, making sure you let that personality come through genuine.

I think the thing about AI, it has always been a thing where AI is doing its absolute best to mimic. That’s all it’s doing is mimicking. If it’s trying to “sell something,” it will mimic what you think that you need to hear. But when someone trips up, or they show a little frustration, or they show a little real moment of authenticity, no AI can really mimic the messiness of being a human.

Katie: I agree.

Shaun: Cool. AI, staying real, staying raw. What else do you have?

Katie: I think one of the biggest questions that people have when they have a platform or an account that they’re trying to grow it. How do they grow it? It’s one thing to master taking the perfect photo, making a great video. It’s not just about posting it online. You hope that the algorithm picks it up. You hope that your audience engages with it so that it does get picked up more by the algorithm. I would say that community is probably your biggest growth hack. What I mean by that is that, look for ways to collaborate online. In a sense, what you’re networking online with the goal of hoping to cross-pollinate your audience.

You could do this by teaming up with another agent, featuring local businesses, anybody who works in the sphere of what you do that would make sense to collaborate with. With Instagram specifically, they do have the collaboration tool. I can post something and then invite somebody to be a collaborator, which then means that same piece of content goes out to both of our audiences. Either you can do it that way, or you’re hoping to create something that’s going to be shared by others, that then you’re tapping into everybody else’s audiences.

Shaun: Collaboration sounds like a really good one, especially in real estate.

Katie: For sure. Again, it’s just another way to network. I would say, as a client of a REALTOR^®, too, it shows that you’re plugged into your city, you’re a part of the community. That just feels a little bit more real-life too.

Shaun: I feel like it’s in everyone’s best interest. It’s a competitive game sometimes. Any business can be competitive, but more so in real estate, it feels like community is so important. If I’m a potential client looking for a REALTOR^® and I see that happening, I’m just like, “They care about not just their own self-interest, but the community at large.” That’s very attractive to me.

Katie: Agreed. It’s the whole idea of collaboration over competition.

Shaun: Right. That’s great. Collaborating, finding your community. You also mentioned keeping it local. That’s something that’s really important. You’re saying that will help you grow your number.

Katie: Because really, it’s just growing by making sure that other eyeballs get on that piece of content that you’ve created. If it resonates with another person that doesn’t follow you already, then hopefully it does translate into a new follower. One thing I find that is often forgotten is the social side of social media. Obviously, people are posting, hoping with this end goal of making a sale, but we need to remember to be social.

It’s okay to drop the occasional salesy post, but make sure that you’re also starting conversations with your community and joining them in. There’s a lot of tools on Instagram too to get people to engage. You can have a poll, you can have a question box. Encourage people to DM you with a question just so that it’s not just one-sided, you speaking at people all the time, and to respect it as a social space.

Shaun: That’s awesome. What else? Anything else?

Katie: My third one is to treat your online presence or whatever content you’re putting out as if it’s a room full of people. Let’s say you are invited to a dinner party. You’re not going to walk in there and tell people immediately, what house you have for sale, or are you looking to buy a house, or here are all the stats, the data on the market right now. That’s boring. It’s not really how you start a conversation. Instead, look for ways to start a conversation that would build trust.

Maybe you can still educate your audience on things that have to do with real estate, but just keeping in mind that you’re not always selling. You can position yourself as an expert. Build rapport. Let your personality come through. Because that lets your audience get a sense of you before you’re even starting to talk about business.

Shaun: I love that. Even when I first started out, I remember somebody told me, he said, “When you’re talking directly to camera, pretend like you’re talking to someone you know, and you really are trying to connect with that person.” In my world, it was a person. You’re really sharing a story with that person instead of thinking about X number of people across, where you don’t know a bunch of strangers. That’s a little bit of a different feeling. The nerves are different when it comes to that. If I’m feeling like I’m connecting with one person, that really helps. I love that idea because the rules are different when you walk into a room full of people.

Katie: For sure. I think what you’re saying, it’s that idea of the marketing avatar. In my mind, with my YOWCityStyle page, my marketing avatar, so the person that I’m speaking to, is Jennifer, who works for the government. She wants to know how to have a good time in Ottawa. Maybe wants some elephant inspiration, wants to know what the newest restaurant is to go to, where to get some skincare, that sort of thing. Again, knowing who your ideal customer is.

Although I guess your customer base can be a lot broader when you’re a REALTOR^®. I think that it’s going to help you be more human. I would actually recommend also that REALTORS^® who have an existing page to look at what’s in their feed right now and think, what is this conversation that’s here? Just make sure it’s not just a lot of data or just sold or listings that are coming up. You’re allowed to sprinkle those in. Make sure that there’s also a part that’s showing you as a person and your personality.

Shaun: That’s actually interesting. We haven’t really talked about that or put much of a focus on that, which is the actual page itself, the actual presence online. Everybody’s probably going, “Wait, I’ve been doing this for a while.” Maybe somebody out there has been frustrated it’s not getting as much traction as they want. Perhaps it’s something in their posts that they’ve already put out there.

Maybe speak to that a little. Like you just said, when you’re looking back at your post, you’re going, “Maybe I’m doing this a little, like everything is a number or everything is just sold.” What would you say are a way to, is it too late for people? Are they already like, oh, this is what I’ve already got. Now nobody’s going to like me.

Katie: They’re not screwed. There’s hope. There is hope.

Shaun: Tell us how to realign.

Katie: Again, I would do that audit of your page and look what’s there because, sure, you might have some existing followers already, but to bring in a new follower, and again, I’m talking about Instagram specifically here, when you find a new page—let’s say you were to collaborate with another agent and then you’re like, “Oh, okay, this is cool. Let’s see who they are. I’ll click on them and look at their page. What is there?” That’s another big first impression that you’re giving. For me, I have my YOWCityStyle page that’s established, and a lot of people know who I am over there.

I’ve just launched my YOWCitySold page. I know that, with it being new, for me to attract followers over there, it was important for me to have some content that was there when I started talking about it. I haven’t been too pushy about it just yet, but what I did was I went over to my YOWCityStyle page and looked at any past content that I’d created anytime I teamed up with a REALTOR^®, anytime that I helped a property management company with a rental building, even furniture store. Anything that had to do with homes and real estate here in Ottawa, I went back and invited myself as a collaborator.

That content then also showed up in my YOWCitySold page. When I launched it was like, oh, okay, we’ll check this out. She’s got all this content, and it’s basically like a big history or resume of things that I’ve done so far.

Shaun: That’s great. That whole collaboration thing is really powerful, that tool.

Katie: It is. Yes, it’s quite cool.

Shaun: When you’re talking about real estate, what are the skills that you’ve taken from focusing on your personal brand, and how is that any different, or what are you bringing over to now that you’re in the real estate side of things?

Katie: There’s a huge overlap. If you think of both industries, the idea of trust and relationships and reputation are so important. We’re selling trust. We’re not just selling a product. Again, think of that. Anything that I’ve been doing online with YOWCityStyle is I’ve been storytelling about Ottawa for years. Marketing homes in Ottawa really feels like a natural extension of everything that I’ve been doing so far. I’ve always kept a deeply local focus, so I know the neighborhood vibes, not just the stats on what’s happening in the market. I’m pretty comfortable on camera. Again, I think my teaching experience has come into play quite a bit. I love explaining things clearly.

I think when you become a REALTOR^®, any entrepreneur-type skills are really important. I’ve been able to show up consistently on my own, a lot of self-discipline, any of those entrepreneurial skills that also a REALTOR^® would need. Really, at the end of the day, both jobs are relationship businesses. You’ve got to think about how you can maintain that trust over time.

Shaun: You obviously are comfortable in front of the camera. I feel very comfortable in front of the camera, but there’s people out there who just don’t like the camera. They just don’t like putting themselves out there and talking to something that is not a friend or family member or a pet. What about those people? They still have to put themselves out there. I’m talking specifically real estate agents. What do you say to those people who maybe aren’t as driven to, and in fact, maybe fearful of it all? How do you help them along?

Katie: If it makes anybody feel better, I did not feel comfortable at first. When Instagram first started, it was photo-based. Taking a photo, that’s fine. It’s just one little split second in time. When video was introduced, I definitely stumbled over my words, and I felt really awkward. It came with practice. Really, I think a quote that’s been really resonating with me lately with starting a new career is that you don’t have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great.

If you’re feeling paralyzed that you just can’t do it, just try. Video is obviously a lot more, I guess, harder on the nerves than taking a photo. You could look at maybe taking photos that at least shows your face, and then using some script on the screen to get your message communicated. If you’re worried about choking up over your words, there are apps to be able to hit like a—what is it called when you’re looking at the script?

Shaun: Oh, your teleprompter app.

Katie: There’s a teleprompter app. That might make–

Shaun: You just read.

Katie: Yes, you just read, and it might make you feel better. I would say finding another agent or somebody who has the skills, or maybe just makes you feel comfortable, and get some practice. Again, it’s not something you have to do. Again, it is very helpful.

Shaun: I would say, too, I know in my experience, stand-up comedy was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life. I look back now at myself, anything I’ve ever done back in the day, and I was terrible. Still, I can’t watch myself. Like you said, the more you do it, the practice that you give it, you feel vulnerable and insecure about it at first. I think it was because of the expectation that we put upon ourselves. If I’m somebody starting out in the social media game, I might say it’s like you have this perceived idea as to what you’re supposed to be.

In truth, I think the more honest and real you are with who you are and what your feeling is about something, and you’re not trying to pretend to be something that you think you’re supposed to be, and I’m talking to the people who feel the most closed off to it all, I think it’s the opening, that little tiny break of being closed off. Who you are is probably what people are going to respond most to, as opposed to somebody who thinks they know what it is, and they’re putting themselves out there in a way where it’s like, no, I want somebody who is so real and so honest, even when the imperfections are coming through.

I think that’s really important. I love your piece of advice. That saying makes a lot of sense. You got to start to be great.

Katie: It will come with time. Again, I think we are inundated with these, like there’s so many real estate TV shows right now, and these people are really good on camera. Is it that relatable? Is that relatable to the clients that you’re looking after or seeking?

Shaun: Exactly. It’s an ever-changing game. There’s so much evolution happening in this space, and I want to encourage everybody to make sure you go follow Katie. Tell us all your socials, Katie, before we wrap this up.

Katie: YOWCitySold, the Ottawa airport code, Y-O-W, is my real estate page, and then YOWCityStyle is more my lifestyle, living in Ottawa. I recently did a trip to Prince Edward Island, which was really fun. 

Shaun: I saw that on your social media. It looked awesome.

Katie: I ate a lot of seafood. Both channels are there, and sometimes you’ll see the same content on both pages, if it relates to both. That’s where you can find me.

Shaun: That’s great. Listen, Katie Hession, follow her on all of her socials. Thank you so much for joining us on REAL TIME. I hope it was enjoyable for you as it was for me.

Katie: It was an absolute honour. Thank you so much for having me.

Shaun: Thanks. There you have it, guys. Leaning into social media is a great way to connect with potential clients and grow our personal brands, but also our professional brands. I feel like, after my chat with Katie, it’s obvious there’s a connection between all of them, whether you have your own individual brand, you have a social brand that’s focused on lifestyle, but then that professional brand, you’re still utilizing the same skills, you’re utilizing the same philosophy. From what I’m taking, from what Katie’s talking about, authenticity seems to be the number one most important thing. I took a lot from that, from her, and I’m very thankful for Katie Hession for joining us.

Again, you can follow Katie Hession on YOWCityStyle and also now, YOWCitySold. Please follow her. If you liked this episode, make sure you like or subscribe to wherever you listen to your favourite podcasts. Of course, REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production brought to you by Alphabet^® Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Thanks so much for joining us today on REAL TIME. We’ll see you again. Peace.

David Coletto, CEO and founder of Abacus Data, joins this episode of REAL TIME to discuss recent findings in research conducted with the Canadian Real Estate Association, focusing on how Canadians view homeownership, and how “good data drives good decisions” when it comes to fair housing policy in Canada.

Transcript

David Coletto: First-time home buyers are saying, “Look, I’ve adjusted my expectations. I’m planning for a smaller home. I’m open to a different property.” The demand, again, that the market is asking for, isn’t aligning with what the supply is.

Shaun Majumder: What does homeownership mean to Canadians? Man, there’s been a lot of talk about this over the last few years. It’s an ongoing issue. Obviously, homeownership, affordable housing is top of mind on every single Canadian, all the governments, top to bottom. How do you break through all the talk? You’re hearing all these rumors, you’re hearing all these misconceptions, or are they real? We don’t know.

Today, we’re going to find out what the data says, which is great. Today, on the show, we’re being joined by David Coletto. He is the founder and CEO of Abacus Data. He goes deep. Along with CREA, Canadian Real Estate Association, they have just published a report, which he’s going to tell us all about right now. Here’s my conversation with David Coletto.

This is exciting. Today, I’m being joined by influencer David Coletto. Now, hold on. I know when we hear the word influencer, we might be thinking social media. No, but David Coletto is recognized as one of the top 100 most influential people in Canadian politics in 2024, founder and CEO of Abacus Data. It’s a great name, by the way. It’s a great brand. At what age did you say to yourself, “When I grow up, I am going to be so immersed in data that I am going to be considered a pseudo Jedi in Canadian politics?” What age did you have that dream?

David: Yes, it’s a weird one. I get that asked all the time, Shaun. Nice to see you. Look, I don’t know when the light bulb went off because I don’t think anyone really dreams to be a pollster. I do recall always loving numbers and using numbers to embed myself or become obsessed with things. I was the kid growing up in Toronto whose parents got the Toronto Star, and I’d come into the house when people still got newspapers. At the back of the sports section, there was the box scores for the baseball games. I would just sit there for an hour and consume it all.

You’d ask me what the batting average of some player was on some obscure team, and I would know. I think when I became interested in politics, that interest in seeing numbers as a way to describe politics became followed. It’s a cool way to see the world, right? I think I get to ask questions to lots of people across the country all the time on everything.

When you pull it all together, you start to make sense of why things are happening, why people behave the way they do. I’ve always been interested in that, regardless of whether it’s politics or housing or what bubblegum people prefer. It’s a really interesting line of work.

Shaun: As a pollster, when you think about there’s so many left-wing pollsters, there’s right-wing pollsters, there’s all this twisting of information these days. How do you guys manage that in terms of wanting to make sure that you’re just basing everything on data and not opinion? How do you find that balance, especially in today’s world, where we don’t know half of what we’re looking at is real or not real or biased or unbiased? How do you guys deal with that?

David: The first step is to recognize that we have bias. You can’t completely eliminate it. Can you check that? Can you challenge your assumptions and your conclusions? I’m doing that all the time. Knowing who I am, where I grew up, what my background is, does put a perspective on everything. I’ve also made the decision—I’ve founded this company and been doing this work for over a decade and a half—that I would not do political work.

Abacus Data does not do any partisan political polling for any political party in Canada at the federal or provincial level. That allows me, I think, the ability to really look at things, when it comes to politics, as objectively as I can. Then I really work hard at it. I think it’s never perfect. As I said, I do have a bias that I bring, but it’s not a partisan one. I know a good week in my world is when both liberals and conservatives point at me and say, “He is the worst thing since–” because that tells me, when you like my polls, you think I’m on your side. When you hate them, you think I’m biased. That changes as the polls change.

Shaun: In terms of data, how do you respond to numbers don’t lie?

David: I think, in my world, where the numbers we generate are from questions we ask people, that they can lie. You can ask a question in a way that gets an answer that you want. You can take a number and spin it in a way that’s not really, I think, a good way of interpreting it. Interpretation of numbers is where you get disagreement. You can get different perspectives saying that number means different things to different people. I do think the numbers, depending on your perspective, can lie.

What I try to do is, again, ask fair questions, ask them in a way that thinks about the best practice around survey design, questionnaire development, all the boring stuff that nobody wanted to take in university, comes to bear when I do my work and my team does my work on a regular basis. I think anyone consuming the poll we’re going to talk about today, or any poll, just needs to keep in mind who did it and what is the reputation of the person and the company that does it, because it does matter.

Shaun: Here we are on REAL TIME. Our focus, obviously, is in the world of real estate. You recently put out this report around home ownership. This is really, really interesting right now because, if you listen to all the noise, if you’re on social media, you’re hearing pundits talk about X, Y, and Z. We’re in a housing crisis. The excitement for young people envisioning themselves owning a home one day is way down, depending on which side you’re talking to.

That one there seems to be the one that has been breaking through the most, I think, at least, what I’ve been seeing. This report addresses some of that stuff. First of all, tell us about what this report is and what its focus has been.

David: Last fall, in September of 2025, we partnered with the Canadian Real Estate Association and did a large national survey. Almost 4,000 Canadian adults were interviewed to explore a number of questions, one of them being, what does home ownership mean to people? Why do they want to still have it? How are, particularly younger Canadians’, expectations changing?

I think what we learned, from a big-picture perspective, is that I think that question of home ownership is in contest. There are people who are questioning whether they’ll be able to do it, but overwhelmingly, younger non-owners still want to own a home. It’s a desire that they hold deeply. That was the intent, was just to really test that narrative as you described, that is this something that people are losing interest in?

Is skepticism, maybe even pessimism, rising? What can we do to solve for that? What can government particularly do to help make the dream, the desire, or the hope for owning a home one day for more Canadians real?

Shaun: I remember when I first started thinking about wanting to buy a home, I had a guy who was my mentor in business back in the day. He did that old-school thing, save up, 20% down payment, take everything you make for a full year, blah, blah, blah. Boom, you put your down payment on your house, and you’re in, and you go. It was much more achievable, I think, back then. What was the sentiment you found, especially in that younger demo? There’s the report, but also what are you hearing generally about what would be the alternative for some of these young people?

David: Well, the first thing to say is it shows up when you either ask them in surveys, or I talk to them. I used to be a prof at Carleton. My class of 20-somethings really thought about housing all the time. I think it’s come to define so much of the experience of younger Canadians. Either they’re just trying to pay the rent or, to your point, figure out how to get ownership, become a homeowner. If they are a homeowner, how do I hold onto it? Because it feels difficult given all the things you described around employment security and rising and falling interest rates and the market’s up or down, what is happening, and the global context that that’s all happening.

What we know from this survey is this: close to nine in 10 younger Canadians say, “I want to own a home.” There is some, to your point, skepticism around whether that desire is going to be achievable. We’ve tracked this with CREA over the years that shows that, yes, the dream, that desire still exists, but there is increased friction in it.

People are looking around and saying, “Look, I’ve been waiting for years. I’ve been doing the things you told me to do. I’ve been saving as much money as I can, but every time I save, the price goes up, or it becomes harder to get, or the rules change on how much I need to save in order to get a mortgage to then buy a home. Or look, the housing’s not sufficient to what I need. I don’t want a 500-square-foot condo. I want somewhere where maybe I have a partner, or I want to have a family.”

All of these variables point to, one, a very clear North Star that still exists, that is still part of, I think, the Canadian dream, let’s say, but a lot of doubt about whether the system all around people is going to make it harder for them to make that possible.

Shaun: Of those factors, what was top of mind for young people in terms of the friction part? Was it interest rates? Was it, was there enough inventory? Was it the size of house, the kind of house that they envisioned they wanted to put themselves in? What were those factors?

David: Well, I think they really point to some of those variables that have existed for a while, their ability to save, the down payment, the interest rates, the cost of building homes, but what this study really identified, particularly those that really were focused on wanting to achieve this goal, was, “Look, I don’t think we’re building, one, enough homes, and two, I don’t think we’re building enough of the kind of homes we need.”

The so-called missing middle of the housing market. The small condos don’t fit, and the detached homes are too big and out of reach, but we’re not building enough in between. The stuff that is in the kinds of neighborhoods I want to live in might be slightly larger, might have certain amenities or features that I need for the lifestyle that I want, whether it be, again, having a partner in the home, having something that I can afford, and having enough space to maybe have a child or to have a dog or whatever it is you want in your life.

It’s that missing middle that really stood out, that we’re building housing. People understand it. They see the governments are engaged in this, but not enough homes that people can actually live in long term, is how I think a lot of younger people and Canadians generally are feeling about the kinds of housing we’re building.

Shaun: The kinds of housing, that’s interesting. In the activation of building these new homes, I would assume obviously the governments plays a big role, but there are many barriers to that happening. What are the barriers that you see in terms of actually activating this idea of like, “We’re going to build 6 billion new homes in Saskatchewan alone?”

David: I think from the public’s perspective, they would say that, one, it’s all three levels of government, by the way, and in some ways, developers who don’t have the incentives to build the right kinds of homes. I think half of Canadians, for example, say that municipal zoning rules are holding back that missing middle, that there are–

Shaun: In what way? How so?

David: Think of a municipality, a city, a small town, whatever, basically having rules on the books that says, “You cannot build a triplex in this neighborhood, in part because people don’t like it or they want to keep the ‘character’ of the neighborhoods the same. This is only for detached homes.” We’re seeing changes. We’re seeing a lot of pressure put on municipalities to change those zoning rules, but people recognize that this so-called NIMBYism, Not In My Backyard. The idea that people who live in certain neighborhoods, maybe with a certain type of home, don’t want to see mid-rise buildings built, don’t want to see more density.

It’s density that often leads to these missing middle type housing, whether it’s being like a townhouse or a triplex or a low-rise multiplex kind of home. I think we have seen over the last number of years that more and more attention has been put right down to the local level in government to change these rules and allow for more of this to happen? What we’ve seen at every level of government, provincial, federal, moving up, is how do you create the incentives for those municipalities to change the rules and to make it more affordable to build those kinds of homes for the developers that we talked about earlier to do it?

Obviously, these are businesses. They’re not going to build a home they can’t make money on. Right now, because of the cost of land and the cost of labor and the cost of getting loans for many projects, it’s just really expensive to build an actual home. Those  are the things that I think public policy advocates like CREA are trying to solve for.

Shaun: Right. When we think of homeownership and the dream of homeownership, I’m sure, for my idea– I grew up in a tiny trailer in small-town Newfoundland, with my mom and my wiener dog and my sister, Ronnie. It was actually how I got introduced to CREA because I talked at their conference. It was really fun to go through every single place that I had lived ever since I was a baby, and go back and look at all these spaces and look at all that.

The idea of what it is that makes me, “comfortable,” or what I would imagine I would like to have in a house, has changed so much over the years. What are you seeing in terms of the desire from young people, what they thought they wanted, and then when they realize, oh, maybe I need to adjust this a little bit. Are they giving up on the home that they wanted, or is there some adaptability happening?

David: I think there’s two things happening. One is the meaning of ownership is evolving, and expectations about what I can or should or need to buy are being reset in real time. Let me explain the first one. When it comes to the meaning of ownership, I think the simple way to think about it, it’s less about the so-called dream home now and more about just having a home. For a younger Canadian who’s starting this journey and they’re looking at the idea, “I do want to own a home,” it’s not so much as a must-have life achievement as opposed to, “You know what, it’d be really nice to have that stability in my life.”

When that mindset shifts, and I think it’s fair to think about this, not as this entitlement among young people who– I always hear it all the time when slightly older Canadians tell me, “I had to do all these things before I could buy a home.” Well, guess what? Young people are also doing all those things, but it is actually harder today in order to achieve it. The realism in young people is actually not unrealistic. It’s actually, they’re saying, “Look, I’m actively adapting.”

First-time home buyers are saying, “Look, I’ve adjusted my expectations. I’m planning for a smaller home. I’m open to a different property. I’m willing to move to a less desirable community than maybe I want to live in because I see the market, I see the world.” Owning a home is still that important that those expectations are changing. The demand, again, that the market is asking for isn’t aligning with what the supply is, and that’s where this mismatch between that missing middle and this demographic, I think, really exists.

Shaun: When you think about a young person, think about, “Do I even need to purchase a home?” Are people saying, “Well, maybe I can save a lot of money and travel by renting for the rest of my life?” Is that an actual thing that I’ve heard people talk about?

David: It is a thing, but it’s not the majority or anywhere near the majority view. There have always been people, by the way. Not everybody owns a home. Not everyone has always owned a home. I do think that, at some point, there may be some people who realize, I’m not going to be able to own a home, or it’s not that big of a priority, but that’s not most people. Most people say, “I’d like to own a home. I’m doing the things I think I need to do to get that home. I think it’s important.”

We know this, by the way. We did research, and CREA has done quite a bit of research to show the social benefit of homeownership itself. The things like you’re much more likely to engage with your community when you own your home. You’re more likely to have a family, which, by the way, Shaun, we need more people to have kids, not less, because our fertility rate’s very low and we’re not growing our population.

People feel more secure and safe. They’re willing to take more risks when they have that anchor in their lives. The social benefit of homeownership is pretty well known. Some people believe the economic benefit is particularly true. We see data that suggests those younger Canadians, say, think of millennials, those now in their 30s and 40s, those who own their home are substantially better off financially in terms of their wealth, in terms of a whole bunch of variables, than those who don’t.

It’s actually encouraging more inequality. There’s this gap between those who can buy and those who don’t. What I think COVID did, like so many other things, is it reset, in some ways, where we could live. If you were able to work from home, it meant you could live farther away, maybe entirely from where you work. I know lots of folks that have moved from central Canada to where you are, Shaun, in the East Coast because it was more affordable. Better lifestyle in their minds, and they could do it. They could work.

That’s shifting back now as more and more employers are asking or forcing their employees back into the office. Again, at one point, people could drive as far as they could to afford something; that pressure’s back on now. I think we are seeing, again, that demand for this appropriate housing is going to continue to increase and put pressure on policymakers to adjust how the incentives exist and will create the space, I think, for this kind of housing to be built because this is a large generation still who are asking for these kinds of changes.

Shaun: We’re going to talk more about the missing middle in a bit, but I am curious, as you’re talking about people having to come to the realization, “Maybe I have to move outward from where I work,” when I think about downtown Toronto, I know everybody’s all about Toronto, but Toronto is a place that I can relate to because I moved from Newfoundland to Mississauga. I was on the outskirts of Toronto, and I would always come downtown.

This is way back in the ’90s. I always remember being like, I rented an apartment downtown Toronto because that’s where I had to be. It was amazing. I lived downtown. My career launched downtown. I didn’t have to buy a car. I didn’t own a car. I could get around downtown. It was great. Since I left, that has changed dramatically, I think. Is there still that hot desire by young people to be like, “I want my own pad downtown, condo, cool, hip, in the mix, urban lifestyle?” Is that getting hotter, or is it getting less, and more people are thinking, Brampton, Oshawa, out, out, out?

David: Look, I don’t think there’s a simple, clear answer. I think there’s still demand for living in the center of large cities for all the reasons you just described, particularly if you don’t have a family, or you’re deeply committed to your career, or you love the energy that living in a downtown space provides and the amenities that it provides. Yes, there’s still going to be demand for it. What we see is that the moment that your life stage or cycle or preference shifts, downtown doesn’t provide the kinds of space.

Most of the new condos that were built in Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Halifax, Ottawa, where I live, downtown are not three bedrooms with 1,200 square feet. They’re studios or one bedrooms of 500 to 600 square feet. At some point in your life, that will not be sufficient. There’s not enough space. That is what I think is happening. Because affordability around many of these markets has been so difficult, you actually are finding that people are willing to drive, let’s say, use the GTA, the Greater Toronto Area, as an example, you said Mississauga.

For now, if you are a 32-year-old ready to move out of that, maybe if you were lucky to own that first condo and move to a larger place, you can afford Mississauga. Maybe if you know geography, you can afford Burlington. You’re going all the way, maybe to Milton, which is maybe an hour outside of the downtown core, because that’s the place you can actually afford to buy a home, whether that be a houndhouse, detached, or a semi. That drive to afford has become a choice that a lot of people have had to make.

Shaun: David, I would love to get into some more specifics about this report. There’s a lot of misconceptions out there about the desire for homeownership. Can you tell us a little bit, the numbers? What do the numbers say? Can you get down into the details a little more about what some of these numbers tell us about the desire for homeownership?

David: Let’s just level set. When you look at all Canadians who don’t currently own a home, and you ask them, “Would you like to own a home someday?” 65% say yes. Among those under 30, it rises to 86%, which is close to almost everybody. It’s not everybody, but it’s close to it. Among families with young kids who don’t currently own their home, that’s 84% would like to own a home someday. Again, there are some people later in life who don’t own a home who’ve said, “Look, I don’t want to. It’s not important.”

It’s still something that’s a desire for most. Overall, just over half of Canadians say that owning a home is important to them. It’s the difference between I want to and it’s important. I think only 11% say it’s not. The aspiration is still very much there. As we discussed earlier, that pathway, though, to achieving it just feels narrower and narrower. The longer we talk about this, the longer it seems that we can’t make progress, the more skepticism, I think, that people have.

Shaun: If you were to carve it up, what are you seeing more of, optimism or cynicism/pessimism?

David: I think, unfortunately, it’s more pessimism right now. I think there is still about a one in three non-owners who want to own who say, “Look, I’m still optimistic. It’s going to happen for me. I think all the things that I need to do and need to come together are going to come together.” There’s a whole bunch more people who look around and say, “Look, I don’t know. There’s so many variables. There’s so much change happening that this just may not happen.” They’re losing some hope in it. I think that is clear.

What’s really important is that emotional state has an effect on a whole bunch of other things. It’s something we’ve been monitoring, and I know CREA and REALTORS^® generally have been really focused on because they’re in the business of homeownership, and they want to ensure that our policymakers, who have spent a lot of time, by the way, over the last number of months, focused on what some describe as non-market housing.

Think of purpose-built rentals, more deeply affordable social housing, all important. We are losing sight of the true, I think, desire for almost everybody, which is still to own that home, and how do we ensure that that desire can be achieved? That, I think, is a big part of the conversation.

Shaun: It sounds like the formula is there. There is a desire, but there’s a problem. There’s a missing piece. I know when we talk about the missing middle, we’ll get to that. What I’m hearing you say, too, is that it’s in our society’s best interest, it seems, that people achieve that goal, not just for individual financial success. Can you tell me a little bit more about that in terms of what the benefits of homeownership—you touched on it earlier—are you able to just deduce based on what you see, the importance, not just financial?

David: Yes. I think, over the decade that I’ve been doing this work with CREA and other housing advocates and organizations involved in housing, it’s become very clear to me. I use a term stats guys like me use, “correlation,” which basically means what’s the relationship between X and Y? You’re basically asking what’s the relationship between solving the housing crisis, solving the homeownership dilemma that we face, and a bunch of other things.

What’s clear to me is there’s four or five variables in which housing is at the center of. We have seen, for example, in other research we’ve done, a rise in the number of Canadians who think our immigration levels are too high, that we need to turn off all immigration to Canada. One of the big factors that drives that view is that people think there’s not enough housing.

Two, we have a productivity problem in Canada, an economic productivity problem. That is not a sense of, by the way, that we don’t work hard enough. It’s that the input we put into our work doesn’t produce enough. How do you solve for that? Well, make it easier for people to get to work. You don’t solve the productivity problem unless you solve the housing problem. You don’t improve quality of life, people’s sense of value, sense of purpose, unless you solve the housing crisis.

Then lastly, as we’ve already talked about, I don’t think we solve our population problem. Canada’s aging rapidly. We won’t, I don’t think, overcome that problem, at least partially solve it, unless we make owning a home and having appropriate housing easier because we know that there’s a direct link between having that proper home and maybe having more than one child or a child at all.

I think, yes, housing is very much at the center of almost everything in the country. If we don’t solve it, I’m not sure we solve some of the other big things that are facing, domestically, the country right now.

Shaun: Where would you place homeownership in the list of to-dos? If you were the king of Canada,and you could simply say,-

David: God help us.

Shaun: -”This is what my priority is right now, and this is what I’m going to do,” where would housing fall into the priority?

David: It needs to be near the top. That’s where Canadians put it, by the way, when you ask them. When you ask them, “What are the top three issues facing the country? What do you want the government to do?” All governments, housing is always at the top of the list. It’s particularly true among younger people, but it’s true among older ones too, who recognize that we are not going to solve these problems. We’re not going to make Canada the place that attracts the best and brightest, that keeps the best and brightest, that achieves our full potential as a country, unless we solve it.

I get the sense, by the way, that I think most of our political leaders understand that. The question, though, is, are they doing the right things? I’m not a policy expert on housing, but a lot of the things the public thinks we should do, build more smaller attainable homes, put policies in place that make homeownership more realistic, ensure that the incentives are there for home builders to build in the right neighborhoods and build the right kinds of homes are common sense to most people, and they don’t understand why we aren’t doing them.

I think we are seeing progress, in my view, but there’s still far more to do. I think it requires advocacy on the part of REALTORS^® and anyone who wants to see housing at the center of every government’s policy agenda.

Shaun: I hear the term affordable housing a lot. What does that mean in your mind?

David: I think it means different things depending on who you are, but generally, it means I can get a home, I can own, I can rent, I can live in a place that I can afford, that it doesn’t stretch my budget to the point where I’m making choices, like whether to feed my family, whether to make other difficult choices because I’ve got to pay the rent or the mortgage or whatever it might be. I think most Canadians, regardless of their age, say that housing in their neighborhoods is unaffordable.

There hasn’t been any hope that it’s getting more affordable, and so that notion of affordable housing is simply, “Do I feel that at the end of every month that not too much of my income is going to pay for putting a roof over my head?” That I think is fundamentally what affordability is. It’s a relative measure because if you make more money, you can afford more, but it is simply that idea that my housing isn’t completely making everything else impossible to achieve.

Shaun: I left America almost a year ago to move back to Canada, and the difference in that feeling of community and Canada as a whole, regardless of the divide politically, it feels much more united. That’s the one thing I’m hearing a lot about in terms of the housing crisis, is that there is a true desire on all levels of government, society, and so on, they want this to get better. What, in your mind, that you’re seeing, at least in the data, is the solution to this?

David: I think it’s twofold. I think one is we have to solve the supply side of this equation. What homes are we building? Are we building enough of them? Are we building the right ones? I think, over the last five or six years, the public broadly has moved from thinking the problem was fundamentally about their inability to pay or afford the home, to recognizing that it’s much more about supply, that we’re just not building enough.

Our population grew really rapidly between 2022 and 2024. The planning around that increase in our population was really bad. That meant that we put an extra amount of pressure on all parts of the housing market, and that is a lasting experience in people’s minds. I think we are seeing indicators of that NIMBYism I talked about earlier, that “Not in my backyard, I don’t want to see that house there,” starting to weaken because no one can justify that position anymore.

That it just doesn’t make sense to be able to say, “We shouldn’t build that here because I don’t like the way that looks,” when we know that so many people don’t even have a house and are having a hard time finding an affordable one. I think the second piece, though, is coordination across levels of government. If Canada’s a great country, despite the fact we’re a really hard place to govern, where you have three levels of government, very different policy instruments in all levels, and so how do we get each one to work together regardless of your political orientation?

Everybody agrees on the urgency of this. This is something we need to do. We might disagree on some of the causes, but fundamentally, different diagnoses, same prescription. That is clear in the research. That’s the optimistic piece is that we are all rowing in that direction. This isn’t a divisive political issue, which sometimes is a problem for politics, because politicians like division sometimes because they can win on it.

This is one where I think we are very much aligned. The optimistic take on all of this is we can do this. As much as the world is forcing us to explore our relationships with other countries, to question our relationship with the United States, the fact is, we have all the wood we need to build homes. We have a lot of the labor. We have lots of land. There’s no reason we can’t achieve this. I think the public believes that as well.

I think we are now aligning federal, provincial governments. The federal government’s doing a lot. I think there are advocates who work at CREA. A lot of the REALTORS^® watching this wish they would do more. I think the optimistic take is that this is possible. I think the country is now ready to see it. The public license is there. I always say that, when I look at polling and policy making, the public’s view, three things have to happen. One, the public has to recognize there’s a problem. Two, they have to believe there are viable solutions to the problem. Three, there’s got to be political will. They’ve got to be willing to vote for it, be willing to force their politicians to act.

It’s undoubtedly all three are now in place. For a long time, the public’s recognized it’s a problem. For a long time, they’ve agreed there are solutions that just aren’t being done. I think we’re seeing in election after election, at all levels of government, there is a sizable, sizable number of voters who say, “I’m going to pick who I support based on where they land on housing.” That’s the optimism that these three things have come together, and they’re very much aligned on acting. I think it just requires continued push by REALTORS^®, by all the advocates out there who want to see housing at front and center on government’s agendas.

Shaun: It feels like, within Canada, a lot of it, it’s like it’s earnest. It feels grounded. It feels real.

David: It doesn’t matter whether you’re a liberal supporter, a conservative, whether you’re younger or older, whether you live in Newfoundland and Labrador or in British Columbia; everybody agrees housing is expensive, and we need to do something to solve it. There aren’t a lot of issues in which you can bring as diverse a country together as Canada and have them all point in the same direction.

Shaun: Right. This report has gone a long way in identifying the fact that there’s still a desire there, and with working with CREA and going to government, they need to not only acknowledge that there’s a problem, but there needs to be action now. Does a report like this help activate that? It’s not biased, it’s very clear, it’s all in the numbers. Is that something that you see being a very valuable thing to activate change?

David: Yes, look, I think good data helps make good decisions. I think what we learned from the research we did over the last few months is that, one, Canadians are adapting faster than the housing market is. They’re not asking for perfection; they’re just asking for something attainable. That the missing middle of housing, those smaller, in between the condo and the single detached home, is the clearest pressure point, because it’s where this affordability we talked about, Shaun, meets livability.

We only sometimes talk affordability, affordability, affordability, but people still need a place that fits with the life that they want, and they’re changing those expectations. I think ownership becomes realistic again for a lot of families and first-time buyers when we make those kinds of changes. Those changes, those expectations are changing. Now they just simply want governments and the market to change what gets built. Then they believe they’ll be able to achieve that goal, that dream of owning a home, which, again, almost everybody under 30 still believes is possible.

Shaun: What can agents do when they’re talking to clients to try to, I don’t know what exactly it is that they would do, but this information is very valuable. That must give them some clear insight into the kind of guidance that they can give their clients.

David: Yes, to their clients, in terms of thinking about the demand that’s there and how to better serve your clients, I also think there’s a lesson here. One is don’t be afraid to advocate for homeownership because the public’s behind you. The public wants it. Two, you’ve got to engage with those policymakers. As much as the polling lays this out, and politicians love polls, they also knock on people’s doors, and they need to hear from people that housing’s top of mind.

That’s another place that REALTORS^® can continue to focus the public and make sure the politicians hear that from the people who live in their communities. Apart from the politicians, I always say the REALTORS^® are probably some of the best-known people in a community because their faces are all over bus stops and all over on signs and stuff. They have a role to play and are the strong advocates for a good housing market. I think this data just gives them the proof points that the public’s behind them, and they’ve got the social license to push this issue forward.

Shaun: Where can people read the reports?

David: We’ve got a bunch of reports that we’ve put on our website, abacusdata.ca. You can also find more information on CREA, the Canadian Real Estate Association’s website easy. Search Google, Abacus Housing CREA, and you’ll find all the details of the polls that we talked about here, Shaun.

Shaun: Awesome. David, thank you so much, man. This has been so insightful. Even though the winds are cold, and they’re a little bit in your face, and there’s a bit of sleet, and it’s uncomfortable pressing forward, I think there’s a warm wind at our back. I think the future is brighter than it may appear right now, especially with the public sentiment being as it is in terms of the dream and desire for homeownership. It’s still there, and the numbers bear it out.

David: It does. I think as long as the public puts that pressure on policymakers, on the demand is there for developers, I think markets usually respond. That’s what keeps me hopeful that we’re going to solve this. I’m going to keep working on trying to understand how people move, and how to move them, and what they want, because I think that’s the best way to do it.

Shaun: Awesome. Thank you, David Coletto. I appreciate you, and happy, happy 2026. It’s going to be a good one.

David: Thanks, Shaun. Great to see you. Take care. Cheers.

Shaun: Thanks so much, David, for those amazing insights. Look, the data says there is still a great desire by the majority of Canadians to own a home in this country, regardless of the headwinds, but there is that glimmer of optimism that is there. I’m heartened to hear that. It’s not just an opinion. The data shows that is there. There’s still work to be done, people, so get out there, advocate for these changes that need to happen on all levels of government and your policymakers.

Get out there, bang on the doors, and tell them, “Let’s get this thing going,” because the desire is there. Again, thank you to David Coletto from Abacus Data for sharing his insights. If you liked today’s episode, please go and subscribe wherever you digest your favorite podcasts. Of course, REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, production brought to you by Alphabet Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Thanks for joining us on REAL TIME, and we’ll see you next time on REAL TIME.

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Jhanelle Peters: Before you say yes to anything, make sure you are not saying no to yourself. I’ll say it again. Before you say yes to anything, make sure you are not saying no to yourself.

Shaun Majumder: Okay, so here’s the thing. You know, for the amount of time I’ve been doing this amazing podcast, the one thing that I’ve always felt kindred with is the kind of work that all of you do, and how it aligns with a lot of what I do as a creative person. But I’m self-employed. I’m always out there trying to generate leads. I’m always out there trying to boost the brand, try to keep the promo going. Trying to book jobs. Trying to close deals. I mean, it is a never-ending process of keeping things going. I mean, it’s really, really intense. And, you know, I would ask all of you, when was the last time you took a break? What was the last time you felt like, “Okay, I’m super relaxed”.

It’s very difficult. But, you know, it’s so important to explore ideas about how we can find a balance, right? And not just work-life balance. We hear about that a lot, we’re going to talk a bit about that today on the podcast. But, not allowing all of this pressure to affect our mental health, which in the end becomes a detriment to the work you’re all trying to do. And that’s why I’m so excited today to talk to Jhanelle Peters, Registered Psychotherapist. I’m not going to lie, this one is as much for me as it is for you. But, she’s amazing and we’re so excited to have her on REAL TIME. She’s the Clinical Director of Jhanelle Peters Psychotherapy, and she was also the mental health clinician for the championship-winning Toronto Raptors.

So, I’m going to try to convince her to become a mental health clinician for the Toronto Maple Leafs. We’ll see, I know that’s not going to hit well with everybody out there watching, but either way, we’ll see if we can get her to help them out. You’re going to love this conversation. Let’s get into it with Jhanelle Peters, Registered Psychotherapist, to talk about how to avoid burnout.

Shaun: Jhanelle, this is so good. I love that you’re here today on REAL TIME. I am so excited. Your energy, it feels right today, it feels positive, it feels great. Where are you located right now as we speak?

Jhanelle: Right now, I am in Florida. We’re in Miami.

Shaun: Nice. And how is it? Like, we’re in – you know, as we record this, we’re in the middle of summer, must be very hot.

Jhanelle: Oh, it’s still summer. It is all forces of summer still be beaming down at you, 34 degrees of it, okay.

Shaun: Right, right. That is hot. That is very hot.

Jhanelle: How about you?

Shaun: I’m in Nova Scotia, where it has been blazing hot with no rain all summer long. And, so I’m feeling good, like we’re coming up to a shoulder season now, It’s going to be nice. But, you know, it’s pretty easy to feel happy and joy when the sun is out. I’m just seeing now, you know, having just moved my entire family from sunny California, where literally every day, a little tiny robot comes out of the lab and flicks to switch and the exact same weather happens every single day.

Jhanelle: I’m glad I’m not the only one that thought that when I was there. Like, it’s “Do I need to check the weather anymore? No. It’s VR. It’s all VR. It’s not real.”

Shaun: And so we’re getting into some dark times, like a winter in Nova Scotia is going to be a challenge of mental health, which is something you specialize in.

Shaun: Tell me a bit about yourself. Jhanelle Peters. Who are you? What do you do?

Jhanelle: I am a Registered Psychotherapist. What does that mean? It means I’m somebody that you can sit and talk to, to uncover things, to understand things, and to feel better about life altogether. And I’ve been really lucky to take all of those things and work with various high performing individuals, including my role and title as the Mental Health Commissioner for the Toronto Raptors, which was a great experience.

But now I get to spread that energy and work to everywhere else, as I have a practice in Toronto, called Jhanelle Peters Psychotherapy.

Shaun: Jhanelle Peters Psychotherapy. That sounds amazing. And so anybody can go. I mean, obviously.

Jhanelle: Yeah, anybody.

Shaun: Right, right. You’re probably super busy.

Jhanelle: So, I mean, you know, I’m busy, but I’ll make room for anybody that you send a referral for, Shaun, if they say that you referred them, I’ll make room.

Shaun: Well, look, I know today we’re supposed to be talking about only real estate and all that, but I’m going to be one of your clients. So we’re going to start because I’m very high performing as well. Sorry. I don’t know, I started laughing when I said that.

But either way, I am, very, you know, I’m an independent person. I am constantly on the move, I am hustling all the time, I am self-employed, I am always looking for new opportunities, I’m trying to do the work in the background to prepare myself. I’m aware that my industry is filled with all these different kinds of arms that I need to develop skills in, in order to excel.

But I also have a family. I have my personal life. You know, so a lot of it can be consuming. And so, by saying all this stuff, I think that a lot of REALTORS®, a lot of real estate agents out there have a very similar kind of approach to how they’re trying to, you know, they’re not like on a team like the Raptors, where I’ve been hired to play for the Raptors. And, you know, I’m just going to play my position, but we’re all going to work together as a team. Being a self-employed, entrepreneurial actor-comedian, it’s very similar to the REALTOR® world. So, you know, I’ve felt burnt out in my life. You know, that’s something that you probably specialize in. What do I need to know?

Jhanelle: Well, you need to know that you check, check, check, check, check almost every box, what a high performing person experiences, and why burnout might surface for them. And I think a lot of people are probably like, “Okay, Shaun, like, I get you, I do that and I do this, and I do that”. Like, they’re counting all the things that you said. And they’re like, “Well, how do I know that I’m burnt out, right?”

Like, I think that’s the question that most people would say because they’re like, “Well, I’m used to doing a lot of things. That’s just part of what my job looks like, and it’s my personality to do”. Exactly, right. Yeah, I always want to be the best at things, and I’m used to stretching my arm 75 different positions. But, does it hurt? Are you tired of doing it? Do you wish you didn’t have to do it all the time? And these are some of the questions you might start thinking about when it comes to burnout. Because really, what that is, it’s a prolonged amount of stress on your body that almost feels like it has nowhere to go. And so a lot of people hold it and go, “I just gotta do what I gotta do”. That’s just what this looks like.

Shaun: Yeah. Head down. Keep going. Don’t let the feeling of shut down get in the way of moving forward. Like, I feel like there’s a bit of that that happens, especially when you’re under the gun, right? There’s so much stress and so much, so much expectation. Self-expectation.

Jhanelle: Yeah.

Shaun: You know, what do you see across the board when you’re thinking about high performance athletes, entrepreneurs, C-suite executives? And now we’re talking about REALTORS®? Is there a commonality? Is there just a human thing that happens or are they specific to each?

Jhanelle: No. You are so right when you say, is there a common thread for sure. I think these are the types of individuals who feel like in order for me to get to the highest peak in my career, or in order for me to get to the end point and be celebrated beyond measure, I don’t get a break.
I’m not allowed to stop because the minute I stop, somebody else can come in. The minute I stop, you know, there’s not enough gas in the tank. What if somebody blows past me? What if I don’t do as well as I’m supposed to if I take a break? And I think a lot of people have that in common.

But, one of the things that I’ve learned in working with athletes that I think everybody can take from is, they don’t do anything by themselves. And so, yes, they may work individually to work on their bodies and things of that nature. But they have a nutritionist, they have a dietician, they have somebody that focuses on their body. They have somebody that focuses on their mental state.

And I say this to not say, spend all your money on all those things, but who do you have reminding you about, like the basics, like you were talking about, like resting and eating properly and taking that time out so that you can get to the end and not feel burnt out. Like who is helping you? What is helping you?

Shaun: Right. Like I have a whole team around me when like for my slow pitch, beer league, like I have a stylist, I have a nutritionist to basically gets me beer and pretzels. And I have a person who comes and just tells me how awesome I am all the time. But you know, that only cost me, like, 60 bucks.

Jhanelle: Yeah, but we got to the university for your dietitian, and you got, you know, Planet Fitness. You got- I call it the number 11. Your two legs?

Shaun: Right.

Jhanelle: Take them outside and go walking, right? Like, that’s your fitness piece. So yeah, there’s so many things that you can do to kind of help yourself. Not to feel that burnout feeling that we’ll probably dive deeper into.

Shaun: Right, right. So when it comes to burnout, what exactly is burnout? Because I think that’s a big thing. You hear it all the time. People throw it around as a term. You know, it’s like, “Oh, dude, I’m so I feel so burnt out or I’m totally burnt”. But what exactly– is there an actual medical term?

Jhanelle: There’s a definition, but it’s actually.. So, let me just give you the best way to describe it. The best way to describe burnout is, I like to say it’s what happens when you avoid being human for too long.

Shaun: What do you mean?

Jhanelle: So, like, think about it. All the things that you just said, you’re like, well, I have to like, you know, if I’m in real estate, I’m making sure that I’m helping people’s closings. I have to make sure that I market myself. I have to make sure that I’m taking the time to gather a clientele, do all these things, call, go make visits, do open houses. I have all of these expectations on myself, and I can’t stop because if I stop, something’s going to fall apart. I’m not going to get the deal closed. So you burn yourself at this pace that is really, really fast. And it’s almost like leaving a computer on. Right? And so you’re like, “I can’t shut it off. It’s got to keep going”. But you ever see how your computer pops up and goes like, “Hey, time for a software update. Time to shut me down. I need you to restart me in order for it to work”. And as human beings, I know I do it, I go, we’ll do it later. I have stuff to do and we kind of exit out like “Install tonight, install later”, and sometimes we never get it done. And so I say burnout is what happens when you avoid being human for too long because you are not a robot. You are not a computer. You need to restart, reboot. You need to rest and fuel yourself with a lot of things that I’m going to share with you, because you are a human being that needs rest. You don’t earn rest, you deserve it. In order to keep going. So burnout is what happens when you avoid being human for too long, because even your laptop has to shut down.

Shaun: Right. Exactly. And then that’s just in the workspace. I mean- when you were talking about it, “I need to keep going, I need to keep going or someone else is going to come in and, you know, get that opportunity”… But you also have a family. You also have a partner. You also have to maintain, you know, you hear this term work-life balance a lot.

And I remember, you know, someone saying that to me. It’s like, you know, I’m trying to maintain my work life balance. Is that an achievable goal or is that something that, you know, gets thrown around too much? Like, what’s your take on, how do people find balance?

Jhanelle: Well, the thing is, I like to shift that a little bit because I feel like trying to find balance, like to think of, like almost like a seesaw, teeter-totter is what it’s called- when the kids kind of sit on the one and you’re like, balance this out, right? Or a scale. We don’t have the same amount of hours to sleep, to move our body, to eat, to spend time with family, or to work. We don’t have eight hours to give to all of those. It’s not physically possible and time doesn’t allow for it.

So balance, when we think of the equilibrium of things, doesn’t really sound like it’s going to work. But what I like to say is: integration. How about we try a work-life integration, which means that you’re taking things that you know that you will need in order for you to get to the end and not feel burnt out and feed them into your day, feed them into your week, feed them into your month.

Shaun: So give me some examples.

Jhanelle: So like for me, I find that one of the things that bring me a little bit of joy is in the morning I will make a parfait, and I’m really extra with it. So I found the nicest mug little bowl thing to put it in, I get like the nice granola that I want, and I actually go over the top and I’ll put, like, little edible flowers and stuff on top of it. And someone’s like, “Well, why do you do all of that”? And I said, “Well, because this gives me a moment for my shelf, because I know if I don’t do it, I’ll tell you a person that will go through the day and I’ll be like, wait a minute, did I eat? Did I have lunch? I completely forgot about that”. But if I give myself this moment to be like, I’m integrating at least my health and my nutrition into my day right here for five minutes. That’s way better than me not giving myself anything and then being like, oh wait, I got to go balance it out. I didn’t eat four meals, right?

I’m going to integrate at least something to say, “Hey, check that off for myself. At least that was in there for out throughout the day”. So work-life integration means putting certain things in these different areas that are really essential for us as human beings, which are wellness, are, to your ears, a wellness, which are nutrition, movement.

Mindfulness, like any type of mindfulness that you can think of for yourself, whether that’s just sitting down for a moment to breathe, connection, all of those things, integrate them into your day, and that’s better than trying to find overall balance.

Shaun: Yeah, mindfulness. We’ve been seeing that a lot lately as well. You know there’s mindfulness. But to somebody who’s like, you know, an electrician from Saskatchewan who, you know – and no no slamming on electricians – but I’m just seeing it as somebody who’s like, “Mindfulness, What the heck is mindfulness?” But mindfulness is not something that is so far out there. It’s just even, you know, taking a moment to just be quiet, to calm, to not have the insane chaos be-

Jhanelle: Can I tell you something, Shaun? It’s not even just being quiet. Because I think some people think that’s the only way to feel mindful or relaxed is like, oh, it just must mean I have to, lsit in this position and pose and, like, crawl my feet into this weird form that I can’t get out of.

No, mindfulness can mean sitting in the car. How many of you just kind of sit in the car and make sure that you turn on the music that you like as you’re driving, right? How many times have you just listened to a song and you can still find your way home without any type of directions, because you’re just kind of- as much as you like to say, your mind’s at a relaxed state. You know the directions to get home while you’re singing the song. That’s mindfulness, right? Curating your favourite playlist, reading a book, talking to a certain person can also make you feel at a relaxed way to feel like you’re being in a mindfulness state. So there’s so many ways to uncover that, that you can connect with.

Shaun: And I think movement is a big one, obviously. And I think, though some people take movement, as you know, when we talk about fitness and exercise, there’s extreme, but there’s also been these studies recently where it’s like “Throughout your day, if you do nothing else other than, for example, do ten squats standing where you are, when you have a moment, do ten and then be done”.

That goes so far. Even going, just walking, it has such a positive impact on the brain.

Jhanelle: Yeah. Especially if you’re going to add the elements of nature to it and you walk outside, it makes you- So that is like mindfulness times physical activity. You’re multiplying them, you’re putting them together, and you’re giving your body and your mind something tenfold that can really help relieve burnout. Right?

Shaun: Right. And obviously nutrition, nutrition has a huge impact on how we feel.

Jhanelle: Correct. It does. So the good and the bad if we-

Shaun: Yeah, exactly. So what you’re saying, if I’m hearing you correctly, what you’re saying is, you know, the expectation of having work-life perfectly balanced is an unrealistic kind of expectation.

Jhanelle: Yeah. I think you can allow yourself to integrate the things that make you feel great. Let’s do it this way, Shaun.

Shaun: Yeah?

Jhanelle: When’s the last time you went on vacation?

Shaun: Oh, goodness, vacation. It was probably last year. What you call an actual vacation.

Jhanelle: Yeah. Okay. What makes something an actual vacation? Like, what do you enjoy the most about it? What do you get to do on vacation that you don’t do anywhere else?

Shaun: Well, get a hotel. You know, stay in a stay in someone else’s building with nice, freshly made beds. That’s fine to order. Pick up a phone and have someone just say, “Bring me my food”, and then someone brings me their food, and then I sign, so, you know, so they get that-

Yeah. See new things. I have that excuse of newness, which is like, it’s a bit exploratory. Some of those things. Yeah.

Jhanelle: Okay. So, let me tell you what I would tell you if you were a client. So, you know, you’re going on vacation and you just mentioned nicely fresh linens.

Shaun: Right.

Jhanelle: A meal that you didn’t have to prepare and being able to see new things, those are the things that make you feel almost like recharged while you’re on vacation that you enjoy.

So, you know, you leave vacation, you come back home, you’re like, “Oh, great. There goes all of the things. This doesn’t feel as relaxing anymore. I’m back into my setting”, right?

Shaun: Yeah.

Jhanelle: So integration would be like, well, we can’t. We all know we can’t live a balanced lifestyle of vacation and work, right? Can’t be like, “All right, worked for three days, vacation for three days”, right?

Can’t do that. We’ve got to integrate what felt good on vacation into our everyday life so we don’t feel burnt out. You can’t keep waiting for the holidays to be like, oh, recharge and then burnout actually. So. Right. Bring in. Do I need to put like some? Do I need to make sure that I have nice linens? Right?

Do I need to launder my linens a bit more? So I feel that feeling when they get made up on the bed. Do I need to say like, “Hey, I can’t cook every single day because that drains me and has me feeling burnt out with my workload”. Of all the things that you mentioned, the beginning, maybe Fridays is a day that I order in and that makes me feel better.

Maybe it’s making sure that I take a different walk on a path, or go see a different show or different side of town because I need to explore something visually and get stimulated that way. That’s what integration looks like in order for you not to feel burnt out.

Shaun: And it doesn’t take a lot. It really doesn’t. It sounds like doing those little things can go a long way and releasing the stress, you know, finding that balance and even even when you talk about the work life thing, family life meets work life, I think doing those things with your partner, for example, in a small little bite-sized way, as a plus every because we put so much pressure on ourselves, especially when we are ramped up and I’ve got this project that I’m focused on or I’m close to closing this sale is like, you know, that becomes the all and everything for that period of time.

And I feel like it’s okay to want to finish that. And follow through on that. But yeah, but, you know, that’s when you need to find somehow like, how can you do that and still feel joyful after it’s all said and done?

Jhanelle: Well, you make a really good point. It’s recognizing the season that you’re in. If your season as the head down season for you in real estate and it’s like, well, you know, I am going to have long nights, I am going to have tons of emails to answer, which means I might have to offload some things off of my plate so that I don’t feel exhausted doing what I know I need to do. So does that look like like I said, you know, ordering in certain meals, having some of them prepped if you have the ability and the privilege to do so, right? Leaning on the people that are within your community and your home and your family to be like, “it’s busy season, you know what that means? This person takes on this, this person takes on this so that everybody can still feel like they’re not falling apart”. Right? We’re integrating what we need in order to get that thing done for that season. You’re right. You don’t have to do everything on your own by yourself. And that’s why I say tap back to that athlete mindset. There’s somebody to help do things for that athlete to perform amazingly well.

Why? They’re not the only person on that court. There’s a bunch of people around them that are supporting them to play at their best. Who are you? Allow them to support you to play at your best so that you’re not burnt out?

Shaun: Yeah, I mean, that’s that’s, you know, I would say that that comparison is really hard for people who have no one. You know, there’s a lot of people out there that really are just on their own. They feel like they’re on their own. What do you say to those people who really, when it comes to finding a just a self balance? It’s not even like a work life balance. But when you don’t have that support, you know, what are some things to do other than some of that integration stuff?

Because we can wake up in the morning and feel cranky, and then it’s hard to get out of that headspace.

Jhanelle: I think, allow yourself to have different, different modes. And so, like, if I wake up and I may be at, let’s say I’m not at a 10, I’m at a six, right? I’m not expecting what I do at a six to be as equal to what I do as a 10.

So what does six look like for me? Yeah, sometimes you have to sit in that space to be like, a six means answering the urgent emails, making sure I get something to eat so I don’t feel groggy and down and, you know, going up for a walk. That’s what six looks like. That’s all I can manage at this point, but maybe I’m at a 10. I can work the extra hours, I can have just maybe some coffee for the day because that’s okay because I feel good, and, you know, that’s all right on that mode. But I think sometimes you have to gauge where you’re at and work within that capacity versus thinking every day move at the pace of a 10 when you’re maybe sitting at a two, that’s what causes you to feel exhausted.

So having that system built in for yourself to really acknowledge where you’re at, if you work within the level of the six, you might wake up and feel at an eight because you haven’t exhausted yourself to a point that’s like, not even realistic, right?

Shaun: Yeah. I find when things are the most stressful for me, when I’m feeling a little spun, it’s because I don’t have control sometimes of my circumstances, you know, how do how much does that play into the mind of somebody, like a REALTOR® when that when things are spiralling- you know, there’s market conditions.

How do you deal with that when you know you don’t have control? Is it about gaining control, about controlling, or is it just about learning to manage?

Jhanelle: You know, you’ve definitely heard it before. It’s the thing where you’re going to hear control what you can, but you’re like, how? How do I do that when I feel like all these other things are part of what allows my life to sustain itself?

So how do I deal with that? Well, you deal with the fact that, okay, what is it that I still can do within this season that might help me, you know, market myself to another set of potential clients? What can I do that’s going to allow me to feel like, okay, how do I save at least something out of here?

What you’re going to really focus on is when you talk about what you can control, how are those elements that are actually on your plate going to help you get to the finish line? So what we often do is we look at all the other things, we’re like, “Oh, but that was on the plan for the finish line. And that was like-”

If you keep looking at things that don’t actually exist that are not within your realm, I want you to realize you’re not moving. You can’t move the things that are not within your control, so you literally end up in a stagnant spot, and that’s what feels like you’re behind. And that’s why you feel like you’re not getting anywhere.

But if you look at the stuff that are on your plate that are in your control, as small as they might be, they might only be two things. I promise you, those two things can give you at least a step or two, versus the six things over here that aren’t going anywhere.

Shaun: Yeah, that is so helpful. That’s so helpful. Staying focused on the little things that you can control and do what you can. Now, you keep mentioning seasons. Tell me what you mean by seasons because I know what seasons are now, especially having moved to Nova Scotia. And there’s a season comment that I’m not going to be so excited about. But, go ahead. Tell me about the seasons. Are you talking about, what do you mean by that?

Jhanelle: I think it’s important for us to realize that not every season is going to be as bright and blooming and bushy as summer, you know what I mean? Like we’re thinking here. Let’s use a plant analogy. You have the season where you’re planting. You’re actually like tending the ground and you’re putting the seeds in and there’s nothing much there but work.

Right? It’s like, okay, what do I have to get, what’s the soil look like? How I put it, that’s the season that usually is pretty heavy lifting. It’s going to come with a lot of thinking and processing, a lot of work, and you know that it’s going to be busy. So planting season is usually the busy season. If you acknowledge that you have a busy season, this is why I say this to high performing people. I’m not telling you not to work, right? I’m not saying “Avoid burnout by not working”. Recognize what your seasons look like. So the planting season heavy lifting, then you have maybe you’re you’re tending season. You’re making sure you water things, you take care of it and it’s a little bit lighter, but you’re putting in the work to watch and see what happens.

Well, when the growth season comes around, that’s the season where I almost feel like you get to look at what you’ve blossomed or what’s bloomed and you get to relax a little bit, right? Because you’re like, “All of my hard work has paid off”, but I also need to know that growth season doesn’t last forever. We all know plants fade and they die.

And they go into a rest period until they could go back through and start going through the tending and get in bloom. What don’t do as human beings as we see the growth and we’re like, “Oh, look at that. I’m doing well. I got to keep going. I got to go at the same speed. Don’t rest.” But you need the rest period. Because what happens is when a plant sits and it rests, it actually recharges underneath, underneath the ground. It’s getting roots, it’s holding onto the soil. It’s picking up nutrients. That rest season is essential for it to go through that cycle all over again. I always ask people, “When is the last time that you stopped after your growth, after you looked forward to getting to that point and embracing it? When have you stopped to embrace it? Rest so that you can keep going again?” Most people don’t do that. They burn themselves out and then there’s nothing left, right?

Shaun: And in real estate, there’s obviously different seasons. I think. I mean, you know, there’s talk of the winter season, dead of winter. Not a lot of people are out there hustling and buying houses.

So what would you say to agents who may be going, “Well, what should I be doing in that downtime to, you know, what season would that be and what you know, how can I manage-”

Jhanelle: What does that look like, building up your clientele, maybe posting a few things and informing people of what’s happening on the market? Maybe you don’t need to be as on and out there, so you could take a little bit more of that vacation, spend more time with the people or things or places that make you feel like you’re kind of getting back to your roots, planting that soil again so that when it is time to tend and do the work and be busy again, you’re solid, right? Like, that’s what that looks like. And so I think it’s really important for you to recognize when you have that downtime. How can I use it to my advantage? Because when busy season comes, you don’t take a break. For me as a therapist, busy season’s fall. It’s after everybody’s gone playing outside, done all the things that they have to do.

So in summer, I’m taking my break because come fal,l I need to be recharged and ready. So that’s where I’m reminding you of how great, you know, the seasons are changing. And when the leaves are falling, that’s a new time for you to recognize what you can fall into and start new patterns. That’s how I start prepping my clients and my clients to be like, “I’m here when the season starts”.

You would do the same thing in real estate. How do you prep them during your down season for when things are going to pick up?

Shaun: So when we talk about burnout, you know, I feel like there’s always this impression, and I think I’ve felt that before where it feels like it comes out of nowhere. But it’s not an overnight thing. It’s not a blink, and all of a sudden I’m burnt out. Like, what are- how can people recognize when it’s happening well in advance so they never let it to get to that point?

Jhanelle: So what a lot of people don’t know, Shaun, is that there are several stages of burnout. You’re right. It doesn’t just happen, right? And so the first stage is what’s called subtle dissatisfaction. And in that stage it’s where you’re sitting there and you’re like, you know, “This is just my busy season. This is what it’s supposed to look like”. And everybody goes through this in real estate. So you know what’s popping up. So you might feel it, maybe in your gut you might feel the tension in your shoulders. You might feel it. Maybe you’re getting headaches. Your body usually gives you a sign and some type of signal that something is not balanced. And one of our areas of wellness, something’s off. Then it goes to, what’s called subconscious disregard. And so this is where you go, “You know what, that stomachache is getting a little tight”, right?
And it’s like, “Okay, I think I’m just exhausted. I think I just need to take a break. I just need to maybe sleep a little bit more. I’ll be fine”.

Does it change anything? And then all of a sudden, the headache starts turning into almost like a migraine-type thing. And this is where you start moving into another section that’s called subconscious numbing, right?

Shaun: Self conscious numbing.

Jhanelle: So what you start to do is, “You know what? I’m just going to go watch a little bit of my favourite TV show on Netflix with a glass of wine, some popcorn, that will take away this headache”. But it pops up again the next day. Right. And so this is where your body starts yelling at you a little bit louder. And it’s like, “Shaun, do you not hear me? Like, I gave you a pimple over here. I gave you some GI issues, a full-blown migraine, and you’re still going”. And then it goes into the last stage, which I think is what everybody thinks burnout is right away, which is the full blown trauma aspect of it. But, the numbing and the full blown trauma almost happen at the same time, where your body goes, “You’re not listening to me, I’m going to have to shut you down”. And that’s where you get sick. That’s where you get fully exhausted. And it’s almost like you have no control over what your body has been warning you to do. So those are the different stages of burnout, and I feel like it’s so important to know, because you might be burnt out at the very first one.

That still counts as burnout.

Shaun: Yeah. Subtle dissatisfaction. I totally can relate to that. Where it just is, there’s just a feeling. It’s subtly dissatisfying. It’s so true. It’s like exactly this. So you recognize that. But when you recognize that, it’s not like you’re going to just pull up and stop. But what is the key? Like, should there be action taken at these points, or is it just okay to recognize it?

Jhanelle: Recognizing it as the first part, you’re right.

Shaun: Right.

Jhanelle: But the action piece cannot be missed. And you nailed that part. So when you recognize that it’s happening, you need to ask yourself, “Well, what do I what am I noticing? What is happening?” And I will say, go back to those areas of wellness that we talked about. Am I missing something? And when it comes to my nutrition, am I missing something and movement? Am I missing something? Is it social connection? Am I missing something in that area of mindfulness? What might be missing or off balance for me that it’s causing me to feel what I am feeling?

And right there, the first step I always tell people, finding the source. You might have to go through a few things and find what is the source, and then identify what is an immediate change that I can do. Even if it’s the smallest thing, to start removing some of that. So the one change that I know when I was going through this, because I’ve been through this process before, even though I know better, and I realize what happened to me is the feeling of urgency like that always- and I’m pretty sure in real estate people would feel that too, right? Like, you open your email and it’s like, “Oh my goodness, I have to respond to this right away”. And that feeling and sense of urgency, that’s how I started my day all the time. So imagine my cortisol levels every day opening my phone to like, crisis mode, right?

Shaun: Right.

Jhanelle: I think it’s important for you to find the source. That was my source. I started myself startled and alert, so I had to change it. And that was me taking my phone and plugging it in somewhere else. That’s what I mean, like an immediate change. And even if for five minutes in my day I got up, I could stare out the window, just lay in my bed for a second before I walked to the bathroom and grab my phone. I gave myself some type of integration, some type of calmer state to start my day, before I got started.

Shaun: Now, you had mentioned those four phases that can happen over a relatively long period of time to get to burn out. But what are some tangible signs that someone might be experiencing? Like what are some- give me your top three to five signs that you’re starting to go down the burnout road.

Jhanelle: Okay, the first one is low energy. And I don’t mean the kind, Shaun, that you’re just like, “Oh, I’m just tired”. Like, I met you slept eight hours and you are still exhausted. Like, that type of low energy is a real prominent sign of burnout because it’s more than just the physical aspect. That’s a lot of maybe either emotional burnout or cognitive burnout. Like that mental space. You’re not resetting in one of those areas, and your whole body is trying to tell you that. So that’s the first one.

Shaun: Yeah.

Jhanelle: I think the other one would be some type of mental distance. So it just feels like everything that, you know, you’re good at doing, you know, that you can do this effortlessly.
It doesn’t really take a lot, you just don’t want to do it. You don’t want to be around people. You don’t want to actually do your work. It’s just like, I can almost do just the bare minimum. And it goes to the third one. You have reduced efficiency. So it’s almost like, “I could do the bare minimum just to get by to collect the paycheck.
I really notice that I don’t love this whole aspect of life right now, and I don’t know why”. And a lot of it has no reasoning behind it. It feels like it has no reasoning behind it. So those would be the three that I’d say are the key ones.

Shaun: Yeah. You know, joy and joy is sometimes like, how would you define joy? How would you define joy?

Jhanelle: I think it’s that feeling that has you full for an extended period of time. It’s like a sense of happiness, and it’s more than a sense of happiness. I think it’s a sense of joy. Right? It’s a feeling that has you full longer than just, like, a chocolate bar or a bag of chips, like, I think, you know what I mean?

Like, that can make me happy. I had Starbucks this morning that made me happy. But joy is what you feel like. For example, for myself, I celebrated my daughter’s first birthday the other day. That is a feeling that I’m still kind of on a high from. Right? Like that is joyful for me, because what I did to create that and have those, those months with this little angel, right? So to me, joy is an extended feeling. Think of your Starbucks long lasting, if that’s the best way of explaining it.

Shaun: Yeah. So joy versus numbing like that. You know, because some people will say, like, “ I am so happy, I am so happy”. But are you? Like, you know what?

Jhanelle: The thing is, it’s like hard. It is hard. It’s hard as adults to actually find joy. And I’ll tell you, I think it’s so hard and why burnout sits longer for us than I think it should is because as adults, we go back to all the things that we have to fit on our plate. And remember, when you’re a kid, how joy is just almost innate.

Like, you look at a little kid and they’re just laughing at nothing, almost, right?

Shaun: Like either joy, it’s either joy is the default or it’s deathly afraid, like it’s that pure fear of everything is going to like, you know, a butterfly that was a little not-so-nice looking landed. And you’re, now you’re going to die first and then, but otherwise two seconds later, it’s pure joy. That’s what I want to have. I want it all the time.

Jhanelle: We all want it all the time. But I think the thing is, we have to remind ourselves that it’s built into us. So, like, nobody teaches a kid how to feel joy, they laugh at a cardboard box. Nobody tells a kid how to do that. But what happens is adults as we go, there’s no time to find joy and play with boxes. “I gotta book clients. I gotta market myself. I got to, you know, I got to close these deals. I got to have the open houses.” So you remove everything else and you like, “I only have room on my plate for work. I only have room on my plac e for maintenance”. And we don’t make space for joy as adults. And so I think what’s really essential is go back to find what makes you happy, what allows a feeling to last a little bit longer. And it might be very different than it used to as a kid, but go back and start from what you enjoyed as a child. I tried the swing the other day. I used to love swings.
I realized, no, it I don’t like them anymore. It’s too high. It’s a little bit scary, but I really did like looking at the view. Right. And so I was yeah, I think maybe if I go sit at a higher peak and just enjoy something stationary, that might feel good for me. So take the time to explore as adults, because we don’t do it enough. We only worry about the work. And in order for you to keep going, you need those moments of joy and rest to revive yourself. Like, truthfully, your body physiologically needs it.

Shaun: So. So when you say rest, because rest is one that I think that if you’re a high performing individual and you know you got to get stuff done, you know, some people almost wear it as a badge of honour. They’re like, “I don’t need to rest. I’m go, go, go. I’m full pedal to the metal”. But can that be counterintuitive as well? Like, tell me of the importance of rest. Is rest important? Do we need to rest?

Jhanelle: You literally spoke like a true high performing individual right there because you’re like, “I mean, if I slow down, that’s not productive. Why would you want me to do something like that? My drive and who I am is to keep going”.

Let me tell you what happens if you do not rest. So if you do not stop, what you stop your brain from doing is you stop it from going into what’s called default mode. And in default mode, your brain actually does so much more things, and it is so productive because it actually takes the time to download everything that you’ve kind of captured for the day. It takes attempts to store information, it makes connections. It helps build creativity. It creates neural pathways for you. You might have absorbed something new, and during default mode when you’re actually resting, your brain goes, “Oh, that’s connected to this. You know what, Shaun? That might actually go really good with this. So don’t forget to put that to that”.

That’s what you’re allowing it to do. You’re allowing it to release toxins. You’re allowing it to bring a new fluid. If you don’t give your brain that time to rest, it can’t do any of those things. And so when we say we feel mentally fatigued or fogged, it’s because there’s a buildup of toxins. There’s no space to download, there’s no space for connection, there’s no space for creativity because you didn’t allow your brain to go into default mode.

Another piece to add to that is, you know how they talk about if you were to look – at I’m going use a baby again because I have one around me all the time – you ever look at a baby when their eyes are almost open and you can see it like when they’re sleeping and it’s like, tink, tink, tink, tink, tink, tink. And it’s going into their sleeping and it’s darting all over the place?

Shaun: Yeah.

Jhanelle: So we know that as REM sleep, that’s probably a really good indicator that somebody is in their deepest form of sleep. But REM sleep only counts for like 17% of your sleep as a person. And what it does during that time, why you’re seeing it go like that, it’s that download that I was talking about, it’s that default mode. When you’re in that deep state of rest, it almost goes 10 times faster in making the connections, making the download, sparking the creativity. All of that is what your brain is doing. Releasing the toxins. So rest is essential. We all have the rings, the phones, the apps, but the watches, if you read it, it will tell you, “Hey, you didn’t get any REM sleep today or you didn’t do this much”.

You can feel fully rested physically, but is your mind going to have the same type of cognitive space, an ability that it’s supposed to have if you don’t do that?

Shaun: Right.

Jhanelle: You can’t focus properly without it.

Shaun: No, no. And I think that’s the thing, you know, but I also don’t think you want it to come to a time where you know, you’re doing something, whether it’s physical or you know, you have a full like break and you’re like, “Okay, I think, I think I need to rest”.

It’s like, no, you don’t want to get to that breaking point. You want to recognize it and space out the rest. And then each time you get up to go, it’s almost like if we go back to the basketball analogy, it’s like, you know, you’re rotating in and out of the game. You sit, you sit for a few minutes, then you get back on. If you just went from the beginning of the game all the way to the end, and didn’t take any rest, you would become so terrible. And you are, you know, you know. Nobody can go that long without going, “Reset. Reset”.

Jhanelle: And that’s why it’s built into sports. That’s why there’s half time. That’s why there’s breaks. That’s why there’s whistles. It’s there because it’s intentionally meant to rest. How many times have you watched a game where somebody intentionally fouls? Or does something so they can get a timeout or request a timeout so we can rest? We’re tired and we know that we need to recharge. So if the highest of high performing people that we admire understand the value of breaks in order for them to keep going so they don’t feel burnt out, why do we feel like we’re going to get any further without them?

Shaun: Yeah. What are the top three to five excuses that high performing people use to not rest?

Jhanelle: Oh, time is definitely the first one, right? Like, “I don’t have time to rest. There’s no way I can fit that in”. And I was like, “I bet you can”. The same way we’re going to sit there and say, “Well, I don’t have time to go to the bathroom right now”, we only can hold the pee for so long. You’re eventually gonna have to go, right?

Shaun: Yeah.

Jhanelle: Because it is literally a builtin mechanism that your body needs to release that. The same way your body needs to rest, it needs to pause, it needs to sleep. And we know what happens if you hold your pee for too long, right? I promise you, you will find out what happens if you don’t rest in sleep, if you haven’t found out already.

Shaun: Yeah, yeah. So time is what time is number one. Okay.

Jhanelle: The second one is, “Well, if I rest, who’s going to do it? There’s nobody else to do it but me. Like I have to do this” right? And I always say to these individuals as well, “If you don’t stop your body will force you to stop. And then who is going to do it?”

Shaun: Yeah. So would you say that’s a delegation issue from a team perspective? But like delegating to others to say, “Hey, listen, I need to rest. You can take it. You know, it’s not going to kill me to have someone else do X, Y and Z task”.

Jhanelle: Yeah, it could be delegation. It could be just reminding yourself you need that break in order for you to keep going. When you think about being in real estate, we think of almost the fact that you wear many hats, right?

Even if you’re part of a brokerage, you’re kind of wearing multiple hats. And what you do, you’re almost like, you’re the media person. You’re the person that stands with the client. So, like, you’re doing all of these things if you don’t take the time to rest and have that break, well, who’s going to show up to do all the things that you’re saying that you have to balance the many hats that you have to wear?

It’s almost a necessity, right? And then I would say the last one is the guilt that comes from it. A lot of people feel like, “Well, if I take a step back, I’m going to feel really guilty about this. And I’m supposed to be able to do all these things. That’s what this job comes with”.

And I was like, “Yeah, but when you keep going, doesn’t that make you feel anxious? Doesn’t that make you feel stressed?” All of these are signs of burnout. Things that come with that fatigue, frustration, low moods. Are all of those things going to help you book the clients? Are all those things and help you show up online properly? Are those things going to help you curate the perfect open house? No. Right? So stop feeling guilty for taking what is a necessity. Go ahead and do that so that you can keep showing up the way that you want to show up for other people.

Shaun: It’s so funny because it is. It’s counterintuitive, like you want so badly to plow ahead, to keep going. But that’s only going to hurt you if you don’t have the discipline to take a moment and rest. I love that. It’s so important. Now, talking about-

Jhanelle: I was going to ask you a question. Can I ask you a question?

Shaun: Of course, of course, I’m here. You’re my therapist. Ask away.

Jhanelle: Okay, well, you mentioned to me that you’re, like, sitting in this entrepreneurial space that a lot of these real estate agents are, like, “I can resonate with this”.

Shaun:Yes.

Jhanelle: I want to ask you how, like, what percentage of entrepreneurs do you think experienced burnout? Like, what do you think that number is?

Shaun: 100. I’m gonna say, I say 100%.

Jhanelle: Okay.

Shaun: If you’re a pure entrepreneur, I would say 100% experienced it at some point in time because everybody is all they feel like, “It’s all on my shoulders, I’ve got it going because nobody else-” You can delegate, and if you don’t have a good team around you, you know, until you learn to have a good team. Then at some point in your time in your life, I would bet that, entrepreneurs have felt burnout.

Jhanelle: Okay, I’m going to give you a little wow factor then, because studies actually show that it’s only 20%. And let me tell you why.

Shaun: But it’s 100% of those 20%.

Jhanelle: There you go. But let me tell you why that number came in. And I found it so interesting, because they said that people in the entrepreneurial space, they understand that feeling that creep up to burnout more than anybody else, and they understand it because they wear so many hats and they go, “Oh, snap, I can’t let myself get to that full blown trauma that Jhanelle was talking about or that anxious feeling, because if I do that, this whole business is shut down. I am the business”. And so because of that, they actually crawl back out at a faster pace. They don’t let it go all the way to that point. They have a little bit more.

Shaun: Yes, yes.

Jhanelle: And so it’s not somebody going, “Well, you need to do this for me”. It’s like, “Well, I need to do this for me, and how would I be able to do that?” They get to create their networks a bit more. So you get to pick who are the people that you want in a reflection of your space. What does that look like? And their drive is more self-induced. It’s a self-driven aspiration versus maybe working for someone else.

So they say that these are some of the factors as to why entrepreneurs only experience 20% of burnout, but it’s still a big number. I’m not going to shy away from it, because if we talk about 160,000 real estate agents, that’s 40,000 people that might be listening to this, that are experiencing that. That’s a lot, right?

Shaun: You know, I wonder how much of it is personality as well. You know, we’ve met a lot of amazing people on this podcast. And I remember learning about one agent who was really in their own little bubble for many years. They, you know, they jumped into real estate later in life. They were very shy. They were very withdrawn. And then, you know, they were very nervous about jumping into real estate.

And then when they jumped into real estate, they realized like, “Oh, no, this is unlocking certain things in my personality, and I’m going to open up a little more and become engaged more with the community”. Put that kind of like, wind in their sails. But then when they start having to deal with social media, they realize, “Uh-oh, that’s not my jam, and I don’t know how I’m going to manage it. And they started getting down on themselves because they’re seeing all these other people who are hustling and, you know, “Sale, sale, sale, oh, look at me, I’m awesome. Bah bah bah bah bah”. How would you advise somebody, about, you know, managing the social media world because it’s so important in real estate these days, but it also can have a very toxic effect on the human brain.

Jhanelle: It is such a fun place and scary place to be in at the same time, social media, and I think the reason for that, what you’re explaining is the fact that I always want to remind people everybody’s life can look amazing if we only take 30 seconds of it. Right, like, that’s what you have to remember. We don’t post our most vulnerable and challenging moments online. You’re posting the best of the best. You’re posting the biggest sale. The nice car, that’s what they’re putting on there. Right. So it’s almost to remind you what social media is capturing. I think once you go back to that foundation, you’ll be like, “Okay, yeah, if I picked all my best things to post, my page would look pretty cool, right?”

And then the other part of that, too, is to remind yourself the comparison piece is not going to get you where you need to go if you keep staring in somebody else’s lane, I promise you you’re going to miss what’s meant for you in yours. And so it’s really important that if you’re going to be online, if you’re going to have to try to find that confidence to show up in that space, put people on your feeds and in your algorithm that are supportive into what you want to have for inspiration, and not something that’s going to make you feel like defeat and very negative in your feelings. So create your social media to what works for you, right?

Shaun: Right. And that’s going to go a long way in fueling inspiration for yourself as well.

Jhanelle: Yeah, 100%.

Shaun: Yeah. Because I mean, because social media and the internet in general is not a bad thing. It’s just I think we as human beings, regardless of social media, or not, like in high school in the 60s and 70s, it was still the same thing. Your social media was literally in the cafeteria, and so-and-so is now dating so-and-so, and you thought you were dating so-and-so. They were going to come to prom with you. And they’re not now because they’re dating- But I’m like, “I’m a bad person”, but really, I’m not just they weren’t right for me so, it is really a mental thing where it’s like learning to manage all of that input, to choose the positive. So it just speak to me a bit about that because that is a thing I keep hearing a lot about online is this idea of, you know, choosing, you know, having a positive mindset.

Jhanelle: Yeah. You know, there are people who are really good at sitting in that positive space. And I think we need those individuals around us that could just always be like, “You know, don’t forget to look at it from this narrative” or, “This is how I see life”. I know I’m inspired. People who can sit in the positive space all the time. Right? Like, I think that’s such a skill to unlock. But I’m also very realistic in the fact that not everybody can sit there. So if the negative side is over here. The positive side is over here. Not everybody can just go, “Sure, I’m going to look at this from a positive mindset”. It’s okay. Right? What some people might want to sit in is more of the neutral space to be like, “You know what? Being online is hard. I’ve never done this before. Showing up as this real estate agent that knows how to do all of these things. I’m a bit new to this, so maybe I need to give myself some time and grace in order to get more familiar with it, so I feel like maybe some of the people that I’m admiring online”. To me, that’s more of a neutral space than somebody going to positive. Like, “I’m going to be amazing at this and this is going to be great, and I know I can do it”.

Shaun: Yeah, yeah, I’m reading that book. The, what was it? The laws of attraction, The Secret. After that, everybody jumped on board The Secret and it was like, “Now, if you just close your eyes and see $1 million, it’s going to happen”. And now everybody’s talking about manifesting. And I think that’s a really good thing, too. But. But I always have a problem with that because it’s such it’s setting yourself up. Maybe I’m wrong, but it feels like if you manifest just by thinking of something, and it doesn’t happen, then are you left feeling less then and, you know, a bit resentful towards the world versus, again, doing the things you can control by putting the energy in and then celebrating the small wins, the small victories, really celebrating the little victories as opposed to saying, “I want to manifest X, Y and Z”? But I guess if you can’t see it, don’t really know if it’s going to happen. It’s a challenging one. I’m on the fence about-

Jhanelle: It is a challenging one. But you know what’s cool about manifesting? Like, you’re right. Like, yeah, you can put stuff in there and start taking your psyche and your subconscious to a place to be like, “Hey, let’s keep thinking about this, so it sits at the forefront”. What most people don’t do is keep flipping the book of manifestation and realize that there’s a chapter in there that’s about action.

Shaun: Action.

Jhanelle: You can manifest everything you want, but if you don’t do some type of action, that million dollars is not dropping from the sky, Shaun. As much as I wish it could, I’ve checked it’s not falling down right.

Shaun: It’s not happening now.

Jhanelle: I’ve gonna have to add some action behind it.

Shaun: So yeah, I think it’s action, you know, but I and I also, you know, there was another doctor I saw who was talking about how you wake up in the morning and you start the day by literally saying the words, “Today is going to be a great day”.

I know this is like it’s not it’s not making a claim like, you know, you’re not going to have some bumps in the road on the day. But if you start the day by saying, “Today is going to be a great day”, your brain doesn’t realize that there’s a whole world out there in that moment. It just goes, “Oh, okay, it’s going to be a great day because you said it out loud”.

So therefore I’m going to start going down that, you know, “Today is a great day” pathway. And you know that-

Jhanelle: And it’s going to think of things that are a great day.

Shaun: That’s right. The brain is the original algorithm. The OG algorithm. Like the more you give it, the more it’s going to feed you things that, you know, both the positive and the negative, right?

Jhanelle: Yeah. It’s true. Whatever you put at the forefront of it. So what you try to focus, you ever want to go in the market to, like, buy a new car and you start thinking of the car and you realize you start seeing that car everywhere? It’s not that there’s more of that car that’s popped up all of a sudden, right? It’s that you’ve told your brain, focus on this car because I like it, I want to know the specs I want to see. And so now your brain starts focusing on that. So what you put at the forefront is what your brain is going to do. So when we’re talking about burnout and we’re kind of sitting in that space, allow yourself to put at the forefront some of the things that I’ve talked about, like the integration, making sure I sit with those areas of wellness.

If you prioritize those things at the forefront, your brain is going to start remembering them and be like, we kind of need to do this for us to feel a bit better, right?

Shaun: You know, we’ve been talking a lot about individuals. You have a good history with teams. And so when I think about, you know, if I’m in a brokerage and I’m the leader and I start seeing people around me probably who are, you know, perhaps experiencing burnout, but they don’t know it, what are some things that you would tell leaders, how to identify it in others, and then what to do about it?

Jhanelle: The biggest thing to tell leaders is most high performing people that we’re talking to in this space are not going to tell you that they’re burnt out because they probably don’t recognize it. So what you can do is ask people what is on their plate that they might need to take off in order to feel lighter.
What can I actually help you with? And saying it from that mindset versus like, “Is this too much for you? Is that too hard for you to do?” because a high performing person is gonna be like-

Shaun: “No, it’s not. I can do it. There’s no way I can do it.”

Jhanelle: “I can do whatever I want, right? You can do it.”

Shaun: “Too much for me… too much.”

Jhanelle: So if you frame things in that sense, it allows them to be like, “Actually, can we look at this plate? Because it is kind of heavy because I’m holding up with two feet, seven arms and my head.”

Shaun: Yeah. Yeah.

Jhanelle: Right. “So what can I put down?” I would say that and then also mimic what you want other people to experience. Are you creating space for people to rest? Are you allowing for actual breaks in their environment for them to take those pauses that they that they deserve and that they need?

Shaun: Yeah, great. That’s good. And do you feel that like team leaders? Well, let me ask you this. What makes a great leader?

Jhanelle: What makes a great leader? That is a great question. I would say somebody who is open to active listening. I think a lot of leaders think that it’s like just downloading all the time, but you can’t be a great leader if you don’t know what everybody else underneath you needs, because that’s what you’re supposed to kind of take and flip back downwards. And so I would say active listening makes a great leader and somebody who is actually sitting with a lot more empathy than, I think, the average person. I think you have to be willing to stand in people’s shoes. You have to be willing not to silver line people’s situations and really understand them so that you can support them and so that your team can feel supported and your organization feels supported. That’s what it really is about, because those two things mean that you pay attention to the individual, and not just the person wearing the badge or the jersey holding a position.

Shaun: Right. So we’ve covered a lot of ground. We’ve talked a lot about, you know, managing, giving yourselves tools to manage burnout. What would you say would be the most important insights to kind of share with everybody about, you know, managing their own self-care? What would be the most important pieces you would say to them in terms of avoiding burnout?

Jhanelle: Okay. And for talking to high performers, right? Because I think that’s who’s in the space. I would say, let me give you a little tip. My tip would be before you say yes to anything, make sure you are not saying no to yourself.

Shaun: Ah.

Jhanelle: I’ll say it again. Before you say yes to anything, make sure you are not saying no to yourself.
Because I think we always do is we go, “Yes, yes, yes. Give me all the things I could do. I’m amazing”. And then I say no to the break that I wanted. This time I spent my family, that vacation I had planned. And then I get resentful and I go through the stages of burnout that we’re talking about. So, that pause to see if you’re saying no to yourself first might be really helpful. Use that as your tip. If you don’t listen to anything else, use that.

Shaun: Ah, mic drop. I love that, Jhanelle. Jhanelle Peters, Registered Psychotherapist, awesome person, positive.

Jhanelle: Thanks.

Shaun: I love it. This has been so good and I am so thankful to have spent this time with you. And I know I’m going to take this way, and I’m going to go right now, and I’m going to bathe in yogurt and eat a parfait out of a bathtub.

Jhanelle: Are you going to put some flowers on top of it, Shaun?

Shaun: Yeah, I’m going to, but I gotta figure out a way to get, like, to be in the yogurt and then get out of the yogurt to find the like, if I reach out of the tub and reach for flowers and yogurt is going to get on the floor, my dogs may eat it. And it probably-

Jhanelle: It sounds like you’re about to make everybody happy.

Shaun: I got to rethink this human parfait thing, but I’ll get to it. But either way, I’m going to go work on this right now. Jhanelle Peters, thank you so much for spending time with me. REAL TIME. Good luck with everything in Miami and with your practice.

Jhanelle: Appreciate it.

Shaun: Are you currently with specific teams that we can-

Jhanelle: Not at the moment, I was doing the mat leave thing, so we’ll see. We’ll see.

Shaun: Yeah. You got a baby. Congratulations.

Jhanelle: Thank you, thank you. No, thank you for having me. Thank you for such an amazing conversation. And honestly, your vulnerability too, to make sure that we all understood what we’re feeling. So I appreciate it. Right?

Shaun: Right. Well, thank you so much and good luck with everything. And what is your baby’s name?

Jhanelle: Navy, the colour.

Shaun: Happy birthday, belated Navy. That’s amazing. What was her birthday? When was her birthday?

Jhanelle: August 24th. 
Shaun: Shut up. That’s Mattis’s, my daughter’s. Shut your mouth. Shut it! Oh my gosh. Hold on. I got to show you. This was the other day, but she turned six. August 24th. Oh, yeah. There it is. Look at that cake. There it is. You see it?

Jhanelle: Oh. That’s nice. Did you bake it? It’s like, you know-

Shaun: I didn’t do that. I would make a Betty Crocker three-tiered chocolate boom brick. I would do a chocolate brick.

Jhanelle: I love it, I love it.

Shaun: Oh, happy birthday, Navy. That’s so cool. Well, thank you so much. We’ll see you again.

Jhanelle: Talk to you later. Bye.

Shaun: Thank you, Jhanelle. What a great conversation. Man. You know, like I said off the top, a lot of this was for me as much as it is for you. Because, you know, avoiding burnout is something that I think we all need to strive for, not just professionally, but also personally. Because if we can learn the tools and apply some of the tools that Jhanelle shared with us today, it’s only going to make us better, both professionally and personally. We’re going to be available for the ones that we love and for our own selves as well.

So thank you, Jhanelle for sharing these amazing insights and how we can identify, prevent, and treat professional burnout without compromising success. If you liked today’s episode, I know you did,it was a really good one, make sure you give us a like and a rating on your favourite podcast platform. This episode is brought to you by Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production courtesy of Alphabet® Creative.

I really hope you had a good one. Thanks for joining us today on REAL TIME. I’m Shaun Majumder, and we’ll see you next time on REAL TIME®.

Just ask Ryan Elliott and Katharina Lenz, two REALTORS® who have experienced the professional and personal benefits of making the switch from previous careers into real estate. They share the motivation behind their move, the skills they were able to transfer into their new careers, and why the decision is one they’re proud of today.

Transcript

Shaun Majumder: You didn’t realize how much blood, sweat, and tears you had to put into it.

Ryan Elliott: I had no idea.

Katharina Lenz: I’ve been always interested in homes, how homes are built.

Ryan: Put your hard hat on, Ronnie.

Shaun: Hard hat, Ronnie. I told you.

Shaun: Everyone’s path to becoming a REALTOR® is unique. It’s different. There is no one way to becoming a REALTOR®, but for those who choose to become a REALTOR®, they bring with them so many different skill sets, so many different experiences. To make that transition from the old life to the new life is amazing to see. Today, we’re so excited to talk to two REALTORS® who left their old life behind and are now thriving in what they do as productive REALTORS®. They’re here to tell us their story. I’m so excited to have on the show Ryan Elliott and Katharina Lenz. Welcome to REAL TIME.

You found your calling, guys. You are now REALTORS® and have been for a little bit, but you’ve not always been REALTORS®, and here we are. This is so exciting to talk about. You guys have not been REALTORS® your whole lives, then you jumped into this career a little bit later. As a lot of us do, we find new paths and new journeys. I’m really curious about why you guys chose becoming a REALTOR® as your next path in life. Also, tell me a bit about who you are, where you come from, and what it was that drew you to wanting to become a REALTOR®.

Let’s start with Katharina. Sorry if I put on the accent because-

Katharina: Oh, that’s perfect.

Shaun: -I just love the name. Katharina.

Katharina: That’s perfect.

Shaun: I love it.

Katharina: My name is Katharina. Originally from Colombia, but been in Canada for 10 years. Moved to New Brunswick four years ago and decided to pursue the real estate career. I’ve always worked in homes. Also, I was a cabinetmaker and I was an interior designer before. It’s a three-year apprenticeship in Germany, which I did before coming to Canada.

Shaun: Where did you come to in Canada?

Katharina: I started out in Calgary, but then moved to Victoria, BC. That’s where I studied interior design and worked for a little while there. Until COVID hit, and then the house prices, of course, so I decided to move over to the Atlantic, just across Canada, drive for two weeks.

Shaun: Wait, you said you drive for two weeks?

Katharina: Yes. I have a bulldog.

Shaun: How long ago was this?

Katharina: Four years ago. It was during the pandemic. It was a fun drive.

Shaun: Yes, I bet. I’ve been there. I did that myself. Then you came to New Brunswick, of all places. Amazing province. Tell me about that transition.

Katharina: When I arrived here, I decided to pursue the real estate career. Obviously, it was pandemic, so it was a very hard transition, but I felt like I wanted to help families settle. For me, coming here alone, trying to get into the system, find any connections, it was really hard, so I wanted to be that person for the families here. They could have that one point where they could find support and help to settle down.

Shaun: That’s interesting. You had your own experience to draw from. Was it an easy transition for you to get settled in New Brunswick?

Katharina: It was mostly, I think, hard because of the pandemic, so it was hard to actually go out and socialize. Once everything started opening up, it was a little bit more easier to actually connect with people. You could see the urge of people wanting to connect in person, wanting to meet up, wanting to talk, and finally come back to a normal life.

Shaun: What was it about real estate specifically that drew you to wanting to become a REALTOR®?

Katharina: I wanted to go into real estate when I was in BC. Since I decided to move, it didn’t make sense to pursue it there because in every province, it’s different. I’ve been always interested in homes, how homes are built, how families actually make a house a home. That’s what drew me to start real estate.

Shaun: Did you find a lot of like-minded people when you got to New Brunswick?

Katharina: Actually, a few. Yes. My REALTOR®, which I used when I bought my property here, I started out with her. I joined her team. That helped me a little bit to start with the connections and actually start getting settled here.

Shaun: That’s such a great Canadian story, too. It sounds like a Tim Hortons commercial, I’m not gonna lie to you. Girl leaves Colombia, goes to Germany, little woodworker, gets her skillset, goes to Victoria, starts becoming an interior designer, pandemic hits. Give me a double-double, and then she ends up in New Brunswick and becomes a REALTOR®. That’s amazing. It sounds exactly like a perfect commercial. Now, Ryan Elliott, on the other hand, he was already out here. Ryan, I’m going to use the accent of your people to say your name. Ryan. Ryan. He’s from Newfoundland.

Ryan: Exactly that. I’ve had family members, they just call me Ryan. I’m originally from the Northern Peninsula of the province, actually, in Bear Cove, if you know where that is.

Shaun: I do.

Ryan: Then moved to Mount Pearl. I always say that’s where I made my mistakes. Grew up in Mount Pearl, and now I live in St. John’s. Prior to that, I worked occupational health and safety.

Shaun: What does one do in occupational health and safety? I hear those terms all the time, but I never quite understood what an occupational health and safety worker does. Tell us about that.

Ryan: With that role, you are responsible for, I guess, managing a work site for safety, health parameters, environment as well. Just the overall management for the workers to make sure that they get home safe at the end of the day. I did that for 10 years.

Shaun: Would you be kind of like, “Steve, glasses. Steve, I told you about the glasses.”

Ryan: It was exactly like that. Exactly like that.

Shaun: Oh, Steve, too.

Ryan: Put your hard hat on, Ronnie.

Shaun: Hard hat, Ronnie. I told you. Oh, very good. You were in a bit of an authoritative kind of place, but what were the skills that you had to do during that time? Were you in an office? Were you on the site a lot, dealing with people? How was that?

Ryan: From, I guess, to the end of that career, I started out in a work site. First was offshore. From there, I went to Western Canada, worked in the oil sands, and that was all site work. A little bit of office administration as well. Then from there, I came back to the province, worked with our utility company here. Again, that was, I guess, an equal share between site and office. You play that management role, so you’re always dealing with people, you’re always communicating, and also, how to have those hard conversations is really important.

Shaun: Like, “Steve, put on your helmet.” You did 10 years of that. Katharina, you did multiple things, and then the pandemic hit. It sounds like the pandemic was somewhat of a motivator for change. I mean, it was for millions of people across the planet. Did that have something to do with this new realization that maybe becoming a REALTOR® is something that you would like to pursue? What were the things that triggered? What was the draw to becoming a REALTOR®, Ryan?

Ryan: For me, for the position that I was in at the time, it was 8:00 to 4:00. My daughter was two years old, and she was going to bed at 6:00. I was like, I got nothing else to do. I’m a little bored with my time. I went and picked up, at the time, two flips. One was a new build, one was an older home. When they were just about complete, I called my agent at the time and said, “Hey, I got these two projects. They’re almost complete and ready for sale.” He came back and said, “Well, I’m in Florida. I’m no longer an agent there.” I could do this myself. I went and got my license, and right out of the gate in 2020, I did have two new listings. That helped.

Shaun: Did you have any inkling before of wanting to become a REALTOR®?

Ryan: It was always something on my mind. Again, where I worked away was something that I really couldn’t do and fulfill. I think a lot of that comes back to ignorance at the time, because you look at it and you think, “Okay. Well, you’re just showing houses, your phone’s going to ring,” but that’s not the case at all. Now that I’m in this and I’m looking at all the hats that I have to wear, it’s like, “Oh, wow. You can’t have this job.”

Shaun: No. I want to come back to expectations in a little bit, but I’m really fascinated, honestly, about what it was that drew you to it, and then why four years later or five years later, you guys are now thriving, you’re still doing it. Katharina, you had mentioned something that was really interesting. I assume that in Victoria, you were obviously very social, and you were drawing people together, and you were throwing big parties. I assume you were very social back in Victoria, so that when you came to New Brunswick, you just wanted to continue that. Is that safe to say?

Katharina: No, I wasn’t at all. I was an introvert.

Shaun: Really?

Katharina: Yes. I didn’t have a lot of friends. I just went to work and then went back home, and that was it for me.

Shaun: That’s in Victoria?

Katharina: Yes.

Shaun: That doesn’t sound like somebody who would be like, “I need to get out and be a REALTOR® and sell, sell, sell and buy, buy, buy.”

Katharina: No, nothing at all. That was one of the hardest parts, I guess, to get out of my shell and try to explore that part. That helped me a lot here with that feeling of actually wanting to help families and that urge of how I felt during the pandemic, being here alone, not having my family. Wanting to help those families build something for them, that helped me to actually get out and start pursuing that.

Shaun: Katharina, I find that so interesting, this idea of bringing families together, making sure that they feel– are you referring to new Canadians? Are you talking about people who already live there? Both? Where specifically did you feel you brought value in your community? What town is it you’re in, by the way?

Katharina: I’m in Moncton. Moncton, New Brunswick.

Shaun: Moncton. Love Moncton.

Katharina: Here, basically, my main clientele is Latin people because I can connect with them mostly because of the language, obviously. I come from Colombia. I know how the process is. There’s no REALTORS® there. You could just basically knock on the door and be like, “I want to buy the house.” “Okay. Here it is,” kind of thing. For them to learn the process here–

Shaun: Wait. I want to hear that story again. Buying a house there, what’s the transaction like?

Katharina: You don’t have any REALTORS®.

Shaun: What happens?

Katharina: If you hear from a neighbor that someone is selling, you basically go and knock on the door, go and look at the house. If you like it, you make the bank transaction, get the papers, and that’s it.

Shaun: Then you just do it that way, right?

Katharina: Yes.

Shaun: That’s incredible. Wow. So highly regulated.

Katharina: Yes. Totally.

Shaun: Do you find you’re almost that matriarchal, like, “I’ll take care of you.”

Katharina: Yes. It feels like I’m the connector basically for everyone. Almost every Latino here, they know me. They know that I do community events, just to get the families together to help settle them and everything. I’m that connector when people arrive. Obviously, they start trusting me, and they go through the purchase or sale of their home.

Shaun: Do you feel like, because of now becoming a REALTOR®, you have opened up more? Tell me about that.

Katharina: Oh, my goodness. Yes. I’m a social butterfly now. I’m barely home.

Shaun: Are you happy?

Katharina: Yes, I am. Yes.

Shaun: I love it. I love it. Now, Ryan, what would you say was the aha moment that finally said, “I’ve got to take the leap.” Was it just that exchange that you had where you were like, “Hey, you know what? I could probably do this myself. I come from a world where I had to manage a lot. My brain works that way.” What were the aha moments that said, “Oh, yes, let’s do this.”

Ryan: For me, a lot of it comes down to the connection that I have with people and the dynamics that we have in our day. No day is ever the same, no client is the same. I really enjoy that piece.

Shaun: It’s certainly not boring.

Ryan: No, not at all. I’m high energy, so I’m like, “Go, go, go.” I thrive on that piece. I got two kids now, so you don’t have a flexible schedule. You’re able to work with your schedule. My wife helps a lot and she’s able to back me so that if I have a viewing in the weekend, then I might have a Tuesday afternoon that I’ll take with the kids.

Shaun: What would you say, Katharina, your career as a REALTOR® offers you that your previous careers do not?

Katharina: Like Ryan said, the flexibility to actually have your own schedule and pursue other things at the same time. That’s the biggest problem.

Shaun: Are you still involved in using your other skill sets in terms of whether it be cabinet making or interior design?

Katharina: Cabinet making, I do mostly as a hobby now, but I still work on some design jobs back from Victoria. I do all the drawings and everything from here. I’m starting to get settled with that here as well. A lot of my clients are coming back to me now, knowing that I have that background to help them with their homes.

Shaun: How sweet. That’s a beautiful pipeline you’ve got right there where you’re like, “Hey, let me sell you this home.” Then they buy it. Then you’re like, “Hey, this room could use some work.”

Katharina: Yes, one-stop shop.

Shaun: That’s amazing. Oh, my gosh. I love it. Ryan, what about that? In terms of the skills that you had that you were using back then, what do you say is the highest volume of things that you find yourself utilizing those skills, going from that old job into this new career?

Ryan: One big piece that I take from that would be the communication, the organization. One thing that was really important in the safety field was standard operating procedures. We would use that for– if a worker had to work on a piece of equipment, then we would have an outlined itemized checklist on how to do that safely. Now, with real estate, and I’ve really enjoyed building a team the last year, we’re able to take any document now and create a standard operating procedure for any new agents or administrative staff to onboard a new client, whether it’s a buyer, or a seller, or how we want to market our properties.

It really helps with the streamlining and organization. Not just listing a property, but more so launching it, and really giving that client experience.

Shaun: Wow. You hit the ground running, really. That was just an automatic plug and play, almost for the organizational piece, the operations. That’s stuff that my brain just does not do, so kudos to you for having that skillset. Did you have to learn that? From the previous to now, which one is more exciting for you?

Ryan: I really like this piece. It’s something that I didn’t really know or strive to do when I got into business, but I like building a team and having good people around you, and creating a good environment. When I got into business, no, I didn’t know what I was doing. It was COVID, and nobody could talk to anybody at that time. We didn’t know how to handle it.

Shaun: You both started. Did you guys realize, you guys started when everything in the world– It was the apocalypse. You started during the apocalypse. You said, “Oh, I need a change.” That must have made you extra resilient to be able to jump into something like that at that time. Do you feel it helped or slowed you down a little bit?

Katharina: I think for myself, it slowed me down a little bit, because I just moved here. I didn’t know anyone. To start out to get all the connections and networking and everything was really hard because of COVID. I think it slowed me down a little bit.

Shaun: How about you, Ryan? In terms of the COVID piece, did that slow you down, did that accelerate, did that give you opportunity?

Ryan: I think it helped me greatly, because at the time, I was still 50-50 with my old job, and now becoming a REALTOR®, and working from home, and having a little bit of flexibility allowed me to plug the hours for calling friends and saying, “Hey, I’m a real estate agent now.” Calling my aunt and uncle and saying, “I don’t know if any of your friends are looking to sell, but I’m a real estate agent now.” I think without that work-from-home time, or without that flexibility, I don’t really feel I would have been able to hit the ground running.

Shaun: That makes sense. Same thing with being a parent.

Ryan: Very much.

Shaun: In a big way, right? Being forced to be home and being forced to be there, which is a great thing, but I’m sure that some people who have jobs and lives that take them away from the home, that’s always something that you may look back on and go, “Oh, I wish I had that time back.” Thanks to COVID, as a dad myself, I feel like that was really beneficial. Looking back now, what was your expectation going in, and how have they either come up short or they’ve exceeded your expectations? How does it look now versus what you thought it was going to be? What were some surprises?

Katharina: Surprises? Oh, my goodness. Probably, the biggest is social media, because being an introvert, I wasn’t on any social media. I wasn’t on it. I didn’t want to know anything about it, but now, I actually had to put out myself in front of the camera and do all of this. That was the biggest for me.

Shaun: Was it a challenge?

Katharina: Oh, my goodness, yes. My mentor at that time, it took her over a year telling me every day, “Kat. You’ll have to get in front of the camera. You’ll have to get in front of the camera.”

Shaun: I think Ryan and I both would look at you and say, “Oh, there’s no indication that it was challenging for you. You’re amazing on camera, and it’s great.” I love that red.

Katharina: Thank you.

Shaun: Powerful. Very powerful. Going back to that a little bit, you obviously personally didn’t have a lot of social media, so when you were told that it’s probably in your best interest to generate business by increasing your social media presence, was it more about personal social media or was it just strictly about the business then, and that was what propelled you to having more presence online?

Katharina: It was mostly business, but I wanted to be myself. I wanted to be natural. I didn’t want to be a fake person. People assume when they see a REALTOR®, “Oh, you’re like selling sunset. Just opening doors and that’s it. Looking pretty and having a nice car, and that’s it.” I wanted to be myself, so I actually show a lot of personal stuff on my social media, and that’s what people like about me.

Shaun: That’s great. That’s great. Were you advised to do that, or was that just your own personal choice? You felt it was important, a part of your value system?

Katharina: I think it would be best to show how you actually are, because if you show yourself different on social media and then the person you’re actually working with after in person, they realize you’re not that person that you are on social media, then it goes sideways.

Shaun: Yes. That’s right, because there’s a lot of people watching this now, perhaps who are thinking, “Maybe I want to jump into real estate. Maybe I want to become a REALTOR®.” That’s a good tip. That’s a hot tip from Katharina right there. Be yourself.

Katharina: Yes.

Shaun: Right?

Katharina: Always.

Shaun: Ryan, I guess for you, what was the biggest surprise in terms of your expectation before, what it was going to be like, and then what the reality of it all actually was?

Ryan: Yes, absolutely. From the outside, I looked at it and said, “Okay, well, all these agents around town, their phone is just going to ring and they’re just sitting around waiting, doing what they want, and business is going to come.” Couldn’t be more wrong. As soon as I got into this and I started recognizing the time and the hats that you have to wear and the social media piece, and now you got to go to YouTube and make an 18-minute-long video about how to move to Paradise.

That’s the sort of stuff that you don’t think about when you’re looking at just selling houses, but it all plays a part in being that local authority that comes back to the personal brand, that people watch and say, “Well, I want to work with Shaun. I want to work with Katharina. I want to work with Ryan.” That’s something that I was ignorant to.

Shaun: Right. You didn’t realize how much blood, sweat, and tears you had to put into it.

Ryan: Had no idea. No idea.

Shaun: Wow. Just for people watching, Ryan wasn’t being silly or cheeky when he said move to Paradise. Expect there’s an actual town. I don’t think people realize there’s a place called Paradise in Newfoundland. You weren’t just being like, “Newfoundland is the best place to live. It’s basically paradise.” No, there’s a town called Paradise, and it’s terrible, by the way. It’s not. No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. It’s a great little place. It’s beautiful. That’s amazing. Your expectation, you had to catch up. You had to be like, “Oh, snap. This is a lot more.”

Specifically, you said the social media piece was something, the time you had to spend with regards to what else on the ground, boots on the ground. What were the other skills that you didn’t realize you had to activate?

Ryan: Transaction management is one that plays a part within the whole organizational skills. Communication is a big piece, but it’s that lead generation. You’re constantly thinking of social posts. You’re constantly thinking of daily mailers. You’re constantly thinking of ways to give back to the community. When I got into this, actually, I got a real estate coach. One thing that helped me greatly was I was able to remove that trial-and-error piece. Luckily, I did get paired with a fantastic coach from the Tom Ferry coaching system, and his name was Doug Hannan.

He had family here, so he knew the market here. He knew where Newfoundland was, for one, which Shaun, you can relate. If you tell people you’re from Newfoundland, they’re like, “Where’s that, though?”

Shaun: “Oh, I’ve been to Halifax. I know Newfoundland. I’ve been to Halifax.” Oh.

Ryan: I’ve been to Halifax. I found that that helped me greatly with kind of hit the ground running and just knowing what to do and how to play and put all these puzzle pieces together.

Shaun: Did Doug– was the name Doug?

Ryan: Doug, yes.

Shaun: Was he a REALTOR® in Newfoundland as well?

Ryan: He had family in Newfoundland. He was in Toronto, actually. He’s from Toronto, but he was a REALTOR® there. He ran a brokerage. He is a 30-year season vet. His administrator was from Bell Island, and he used to travel here regularly, so that helped a lot when he was coaching and guiding me.

Shaun: That’s interesting because having somebody to coach you who knows Newfoundland real estate, that’s a blessing, knows the geography, knows the place. Katharina, in terms of having an expectation of what Moncton was like, specifically talk about that market because going from Victoria, the West to the East is so drastically different. How long did it take you to get a real sense of what Moncton specifically was like? You service Moncton proper?

Katharina: Yes, right in the Moncton area.

Shaun: What was that like, because Ryan knew what his hometown was like, but you had to come into a brand-new market.

Katharina: Yes. It was really hard, and it’s still hard to connect here with the locals. I hear that from all of the families that I serve as well, that it’s really hard to connect with all the families because it’s such a small town still. They’re really tied together. They know everyone. I live a little bit outside of Moncton, half an hour out in Salisbury. I started door-knocking there. I just wanted to give it a try, and everyone would say, “Well, yes, my kid went with this REALTOR® to school, so we know her,” and that was like every second door. They knew this REALTOR®, so I’m like, “Yes, I don’t have any chance.” It was really hard.

Shaun: If you’re in Moncton, she’s the go-to. If you’re in Paradise–

Katharina: It’s Ryan.

Shaun: Ryan doesn’t live there, but St. John’s, go to Ryan. I love this because so many people have been through so many transitions. People aren’t necessarily wake up and they say, “This is exactly what I’m going to do and this is the career that I’m going to have.” That challenge of transitioning from an old career, and probably, you did very well, right, Ryan? You’re working out West, you’re a Newfoundlander working in Fort Mac. I mean, come on, buddy, that is good money out there, and it’s just handed to you. You’re working obviously, but then you come home, now you’ve got to do it yourself. Has it unlocked the entrepreneurial spirit in you?

Ryan: Very much. I went to school for four years, and then I went West. I went through that phase of being away from my family to make the big dollar. Then, when I got into this, and you said it, it unlocks that entrepreneurial spirit. It creates that business fire where you look at the opportunities and you say, “Okay. Well, these connections that I’m having daily, what else can I do with this?” Whether that’s looking into maybe investing into a development as a subdivision or just going down the road of building houses. Definitely, every day, it’s always something new, where you’re like, “Okay. Well, through real estate, what else can I build on?” There are so many opportunities there.

Shaun: It’s not just about buying and selling. It sounds like, especially Katharina, what you’ve done, you’ve tapped into community, which I think is really powerful, too. Tell me about your involvement in the community now. Outside of MLS listings and buying and selling, how have you now immersed yourself in the community? You’re adding not only just your expertise now as a REALTOR®, but you’re also helping grow and cultivate connections in a community. Tell me a bit about that. What are your skill sets outside of real estate-

Katharina: Oh, goodness.

Shaun: -that you now bring.

Katharina: I volunteer for some of the newcomer associations here. I host community events for my Latin people. I have a Colombian dance group, which we participate in events.

Shaun: What’s that music specific-

Katharina: Cumbia.

Shaun: -to Colombia? Cumbia. Oh, my gosh. Ryan, do you know Cumbia?

Ryan: No.

Shaun: It’s like a Newfoundland jig with a lot more hips. Look up Cumbia. It’s the best. Wait, you said host community events. What would that be? What does that look like?

Katharina: I do everything, to be honest. I do Latin parties. I throw community events for families, where the kids can go and do something. I collaborate with a lot of associations as well that do Zumba classes, kids painting stuff, a lot of different things for the community, so that they can actually settle and find their connections.

Shaun: Oh, yes. Now, again, I do want to touch on that one more time. If you have any specific stories of– Tell me a bit about a family that you helped, who came from wherever in Latin America. Is there a Canadian story there where they’ve come from away, they’re there now in New Brunswick, they don’t know exactly what the next steps are. Is there anybody specifically that you recall really watching how much of an influence you had? Not to take about you, but you’re not just helping people locally buy houses. You also have that layer of helping people transition from wherever they come from into Canada, and then find a place to live in Moncton.

Katharina: Let’s see. There was one family, a couple, two kids, helped them buy the house. They just starting settle–

Shaun: Where were they from?

Katharina: Colombia.

Shaun: They came specifically from Colombia?

Katharina: Yes. I helped them settle and everything. Her and her daughter were really into dance. They’re now in my Colombian dance group. Her daughter become basically almost like my little sister. That’s really close to me. I saw how they evolved from being here alone to what they’ve grown to. They started their own business now and everything.

Shaun: Oh, tell me more about that. What was the business?

Katharina: They’re doing decoration for events.

Shaun: Oh, cool. Party design.

Katharina: Yes. The balloon stuff, the arches, the weddings, all of that. I can refer them to a lot of events that I host as well. We help each other.

Shaun: That’s great. You helped them find a home?

Katharina: Yes.

Shaun: They found a house and they moved in. How long ago was this?

Katharina: That was almost a year ago.

Shaun: Awesome. How are they doing?

Katharina: They’re awesome. They love it.

Shaun: They’re happy. They love it.

Katharina: Yes. Her mom is visiting here now. They’re happy, enjoying it.

Shaun: That’s awesome. What about you, Ryan? Specifically, what was your first actual sell or buy? What was your first kind of you’re like, “I did it. I can actually do this.”

Ryan: I think I had one there a couple of years ago where it was a first-time buyer. She was older. It was a little bit later in life for her. The market here has been very busy. It’s been very active, so it’s very tough to get somebody under contract, and it takes a lot of offers, really. When we–

Shaun: Now, when you say it was busy, it’s active, explain what that looks like in St. John’s. Are you talking St. John’s specifically?

Ryan: Yes. St. John’s proper right now for this exact story, for all of the area, really. Right now, we have lower inventory than we’ve ever had, and we likely have more demand than we’ve ever had. When you’re writing on a offer on a house, it’s going to take either a very strong offer to persuade the seller, or it’s going to take a few offers before you find the right one where you’re comfortable enough to offer what it’s going to take to get that property. This one, this particular client, we probably wrote about 10 offers, and we had to get really creative when we finally got her under contract.

When it happened, it was still such a feel-good moment because I lost my– I’m not going to say much of this, but I lost my mother a couple of years ago. Then, just the connection I had with this woman, you could tell that she was such a good mom. That was awesome.

Shaun: That’s amazing. Oh, my gosh. That’s such an interesting thing. We usually think of people who are, “I’m going to buy a house.” A young couple, a young professional, first house, but this is somebody who is a mom. Had how many kids?

Ryan: She had two kids. She was almost 70 when she bought her first house.

Shaun: Amazing. What a feeling.

Ryan: Yes, it was absolutely incredible.

Shaun: Wow.

Ryan: Just to get that across the finish line.

Shaun: Obviously, young family comes from Colombia, they get integrated into Moncton, have a business. The other end of the spectrum with this lady, a mom, who you had a special connection with, and buys her first house later in life. Was it her dream to own a house?

Ryan: It was. She wanted to do this before it was too late-

Shaun: Wow.

Ryan: -so that she had something to leave her kids.

Shaun: Oh, that is gorgeous. It’s very satisfying. It’s very gratifying. What you guys do is more than just buy and sell, it sounds like. I think that’s important for people who are watching, who are thinking about it, or if there’s REALTORS® who are watching, that they can obviously attest to this very thing. Those are great stories, guys. I love that so much. Here we are. We’re at the end of our chat, but before we go, I’d like each of you to tell me where you see yourself, what you’d like to see yourself doing in five years from now. What is your future as a person who helps people find homes and an agent in Newfoundland, where do you guys see yourselves? What would be the ultimate dream for you both? Katharina?

Katharina: For me, I’d love to grow my team to be able to serve my community a little bit better. Getting better in French as well. I started French classes now, so I’m trying to grow my community and not only serve Latin people.

Shaun: Le formidable.

Katharina: Oui, oui. That’s all I have for now, but yes, that’s mostly it. I want to grow my team, that I can serve my community better for sure.

Shaun: How’s that going? How do you go about building that team? Is it because you need more people from Latin America to become REALTORS®, to become home finders?

Katharina: Yes. I have a few either past clients or friends that are interested in getting into real estate now, some are getting into it. I have a few agents that want to change brokerage right now, so I’m getting them into– Which are not Canadian either. It’s getting a multicultural team together to help all the newcomers settle.

Shaun: Oh, sweet. Love it. Love it. What about you, Ryan?

Ryan: Yes. Very much similar. Definitely continue to build out, grow a team so that we can help service more, but I also want to get more involved with the community, specifically within the sporting world. Sponsor more teams, sponsor more events.

Shaun: Oh, I see.

Ryan: Sponsor more gear. If it’s needed for hockey or baseball, anything like that.

Shaun: You have a personal passion for local recreation and sport.

Ryan: Big time. I grew up playing hockey here in Mount Pearl. I got a 4-year-old son now that’s starting to get into it. I’m just thriving on that, and I’d like to be able to do more.

Shaun: Oh, that’s awesome. Support your community.

Ryan: Big time.

Shaun: Great. Guys, this has been amazing to hear your stories as REALTORS®. This is REAL TIME. We talk to REALTORS®. It’s the podcast for REALTORS®, but I feel like hearing your story is so insightful because we think, “Oh, how do people become REALTORS®? What’s that like? What’s their before life? What’s their new life?” Thank you so much for sharing your stories. It’s been insightful for me as well. If you’re ever in Halifax and you want to have a ball hockey game, Ryan, once you come and sponsor it. Then afterwards, we’ll go and eat delicious Latin food at the Kinsmen Club after.

Shaun: I’m just spitballing here, guys. I’m just spitballing, bringing it all together.

Ryan: Yes, that’s a good idea.

Katharina: Yes, I’m in.

Shaun: Who’s in?

Katharina: I’m in.

Ryan: I’m in.

Katharina: You got me on food.

Shaun: Yes. Yum, yum, yum. Ryan, look up Cumbia. You’re going to see-

Ryan: Cumbia.

Shaun: -buddy. The best music ever. Thank you, both. Thank you, both. Good luck with everything, and we’ll see you again. I’m sure.

Katharina: Thank you so much.

Ryan: Thank you.

Shaun: Bye, guys. What a great chat. I love that. Thanks to Ryan and Katharina for telling us their stories. It was so amazing to see. Bringing their life skills, bringing everything that they love about their communities, and now forging a path of their own. It’s changing not only their own lives, but the people around them. What a great chat. Guys, thank you so much for joining me today. If you like this episode, make sure you get out there, find your favorite podcast platform. Give us a like, give us a review, share with everybody you know. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Production courtesy of Alphabet Creative. Thanks so much, guys. We’ll see you next time on REAL TIME.

Sean Provencher, a REALTOR®, founder of Endgame Coaching, and supporter of incorporating AI into everyday business, joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to share his experience on how AI has helped his business thrive, strategies he uses, and how REALTORS® can embrace this emerging technology in a responsible way. 

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